CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Are South Sub tram-trains any closer?

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  1. Stephan Matthiesen
    Member

    I can't quite see why a spur to ERI would be better than a proper interchange between the South Sub and Tramline 3 (build a new South Sub station on the bidge/dam above Cameron Toll roundabout with pedestrian connections to the shopping centre and to the tram stop just adjacent to the roundabout).

    A problem with a spur is timetabling. How many trains should go along the circle and how many divert to ERI? Would you end up with half as many trains in the east than in the west? Or should the spur form a triangle so that ERI trains can go in both directions?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Stephan Matthiesen
    Member

    Did anybody else notice the total lack of leadership and enthusiasm from Derek Mackay (quoted in the EEN article):

    "I am happy to meet and to take the issue further, but I give a strong message that I want to see clear evidence from the south east of Scotland transport partnership and City of Edinburgh Council that the issue is a priority for them, so that it can be taken seriously."

    On other words "If everybody pushes me I may be dragged along but I'm not doing anything proactively".

    I would have hoped that a transport minister actually fights for improvements. That's what we pay him for, don't we?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "

    He has described the reopening of the South Sub as “a catalyst” for an integrated transport plan for Edinburgh to help cope with the forecast growth in population over the next 20 years, with studies suggesting an increase of almost 30 per cent.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/msps-ask-hearts-and-universities-to-fund-suburban-rail-1-4039065

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Let's bear in mind also that there is already a critical lack of rolling stock in the UK (never mind just Scotland). Passengers on the new Borders route are all too familiar with this, getting too few clapped out old 158 units to introduce a flagship new service, and when the FRB was closed Scotrail had to rob Peter to pay Paul and shuffle stock around by removing it from other routes and putting on buses instead (and hiring in some extra carriages of the sort normally reserved for railtours).

    So it's not just a case of signalling, timetabling, platforms and access to be funded, if this is to work, new rolling stock will have to be stumped up for (be it conventional or tram-train).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/tram-trains-for-edinburgh-s-south-suburban-line-backed-by-rail-chief-1-4056902

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    NEW Lothian Tory MSP Miles Briggs is on track for early talks on bringing back passenger services to the Capital’s South Suburban rail line.

    He has written to new Transport Minister Humza Yousaf asking for an early meeting to discuss the issue.

    Mr Briggs, who has backed the campaign to reopen the South Sub to passenger trains, said he wanted to ensure the issue was clearly on the minister’s radar as he took command of the transport brief.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/talks-to-be-held-on-reopening-edinburgh-s-south-suburban-railway-line-1-4135211

    Posted 7 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "

    There will be a strategic transport review during the course of this parliament.

    “If we can put together a feasibility study early on I would hope the government would back it.

    “The parliament could put through a Bill if necessary – and there’s no reason why it couldn’t be open by the end of this parliament.”

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/southside/south-suburban-rail-line-could-carry-passengers-by-2021-msp-1-4142198

    Posted 7 years ago #

  8. Morningsider
    Member

    You don't need a Bill to authorise work on an existing railway, or to build most new railways in Scotland - following the enactment of the Transport and Works (Scotland) Act 2007.

    I wouldn't hold my breath - the SNP Government hasn't authorised any new railway lines - although it did cancel the Edinburgh and Glasgow airport rail links.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  9. crowriver
    Member

    Is it in the franchise specification for Scotrail? If not, I suspect it ain't happening.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  10. jonty
    Member

    Scotrail don't deliver infrastructure - Network Rail do. If a new line were built before the franchise changeover at 2025, a mechanism presumably exists for altering the service requirement to make sure the line has trains on it.

    (Also not out of the question that if it were operated with tram-trains or some other novel method a new bespoke franchise might be created for it, at least initially.)

    Posted 7 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    Of course it should have been sorted at the sam tme as this -

    "

    Borders Railway beats forecast passenger levels by 22%

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-36416656

    Posted 7 years ago #

  12. Frenchy
    Member

    It's quite interesting that their predictions for the numbers at each individual station were almost all horrendously wrong - most are wrong by a factor of 5 or more.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  13. cc
    Member

    Yes! And it's just as well that the Borders stations are a good deal more popular than forecast, since some of the other stations (e.g. Eskbank) are mightily _less_ popular than forecast.
    Although I wonder if that could be because the train is already close to full by the time it gets to Eskbank...?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  14. jonty
    Member

    From what I'd heard, the business case was "popular short-distance commuter route with unpopular long-distance leisure travel route tacked on the end." Indeed, one possibility might have been that the route was only built as far as Gorebridge or somewhere near, I think.

    Looks like the exact opposite has been shown to be true - I wonder why? Less housebuilding than expected? When was the forecast done?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  15. Morningsider
    Member

    Yay - expensive consultants get rail reopening figures completely wrong again!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  16. The Boy
    Member

    Presumably passenger numbers for Shawfair are going to be based on all the house building to be carried over coming years?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "house building to be carried over coming years?"

    Yeah the house building that's been coming for years...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  18. PS
    Member

    To be fair, everyone I know in the Borders told me that the Borders Railway was a waste of money because they wouldn't use it, so if the passenger forecasts were based on potential user surveys of folk like that then it's no great surprise that they undershot.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "because they wouldn't use it"

    Many changed their minds?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  20. Frenchy
    Member

    Presumably passenger numbers for Shawfair are going to be based on all the house building to be carried over coming years?

    That would be an odd thing to include in a forecast specifically for the first six months of use, no?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  21. The Boy
    Member

    Rather depends on when the building was anticipated, doesn't it? The forecast is how old now, 5+ years?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Looks like the exact opposite has been shown to be true - I wonder why?

    I've got quite a few Midlothian-based colleagues who are close to the railway (Bonnyrigg, Newtongrange etc.) and none of them seem to use the train to commute, for them an early start to "beat the traffic", hop in the car at their front door and get out at the front door to the office in 25-odd minutes is much more efficient and reliable than walking or driving to a station to get on a quite possibly late or cramped commuter service then walking the 15 minutes to the office (potentially in the rain) at the other end, only to repeat at the end of the day. Unless you were working in central Edinburgh, where it's harder to park and you have a long, slow drive in down the "arterial routes" like the Dalkeith or Liberton Roads, I can't see the attraction for those working on the periphery of the city with good, direct access to the bypass at either end and big main roads around Bonnyrigg. A train commute would be slower, less reliable and more expensive for them.

    It does seem to be popular with them for day trips / nights out to Edinburgh though - I'm not sure if they ever head south on it though, for some that part of the map is still blank with "HERE BE DRAGONS" written on it.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    There are more dragons in Edinburgh.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Those aren't dragons, they are stuffed Nessies in See You Jimmy bunnets.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    My mistake.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  26. crowriver
    Member

    @kaputnik, aye that's what I was thinking. For folk in Midlothian it usually makes more sense to drive because much of the employment is to the west, where the bypass goes...

    This will presumably remain the case even when the planned developments at Shawfair, Newtongrange etc. are eventually built.

    Of course some folk will take the bus, others will cycle instead. Majority won't do the latter because: hills, rain, helmet hair, hazardous roads, etc.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  27. AKen
    Member

    I've used the train to visit Borders General Hospital - it's only 15 mins walk from Tweedbank and it's the best way for me to get there - probably working out about the same cost-wise as driving.

    I also need to regularly go from the centre to Eskbank. However, single ticket on the bus is £1:50 and the train is £4. The time-saving's not enough to justify it.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    "

    “It’s now for the council and the transport partnership to make the business case for its reopening. It needs some willpower in the council to take it forward.”

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/msps-urge-council-to-act-to-ensure-reopening-of-south-suburban-line-1-4225519

    Er well yes, don't think CEC is the problem - or should be responsible for making the case, though they might do a better job than TS & NR.

    "

    A Network Rail spokesman said: “We are carrying out upgrade work on the south suburban line to allow additional freight trains to use the line, and for passenger trains to use it as a diversionary route. At present there are no plans to reintroduce a timetabled passenger service on the line.”

    "

    I'm sure NR will remain unmoved until SG shows them the money...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  29. Morningsider
    Member

    The upgrade of the sub isn't to allow more freight trains to use the line - they are increasing the loading gauge to allow larger containers to be moved along the line. The closure of Longannet will have reduced traffic on the line and it is difficult to see where additional freight traffic would come from.

    Passing the buck to the Council and Sestran tells you all you need to know about the likelihood of this ever happening.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "Passing the buck to the Council and Sestran tells you all you need to know about the likelihood of this ever happening."

    Well yes. Question is 'was Mr. Briggs led to believe (by HY) that getting CEC to do a feasibility study was the best way forward?'...

    "

    Lothian Tory MSP Miles Briggs met Transport Minister Humza Yousaf to discuss the future of the route, which closed as a commuter line in 1962 and is now used for some freight trains and diverted services. And afterwards he said he had been encouraged by Mr Yousaf’s attitude.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/msps-urge-council-to-act-to-ensure-reopening-of-south-suburban-line-1-4225519

    Posted 7 years ago #

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