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Orchard Brae route help

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Started 8 years ago by Claire
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Claire
Member

Hello folks,

I am hoping someone might be able to help me with a bit of route planning. I went out with my other half today, supremely confident that we'd be able to get him practically door to door on a suitable cycle route for a rider that is not experienced with on-road riding.

Unfortunately, we only managed about 85% stress-free and enjoyable. After being spat out of the NEPN at Ravelston Dykes via a rooty ramp and various metal obstructions barring entry and exit to the network, we soon discovered that it's a bit, erm, "ropey" to say the least on the last leg.

I am looking for a good, quiet and accessible route from Roseburn to Orchard Brae House. Does anyone have any suggestions? This is the route we tried and it was pretty lovely. And then was pretty horrible once we left NEPN and reached Queensferry Road.

He wants to cycle to work, but once you include dismounts, walking across islands, negotiating tight cut throughs and avoiding very heavy rush hour traffic it's getting close to a bus journey on timing and convenience.

I don't know this area very well and found the experience supremely frustrating. Any help or alternative suggestions appreciated... Please bear in mind he is not confident in traffic and the volume of fast-moving traffic in this area is not insignificant. Sigh.

Posted 8 years ago #
Stickman
Member

Would carrying on along Ravelston Dykes then down Dean Path be easier/quieter than messing with Queensferry Road? I think that parts of RD are 20mph at school times in the morning. I think there is also a cut-through from Murrayfield Gardens onto RD which would save the trip to the NEPN (although the NEPN is much nicer).

It's so b****y frustrating that what is such a short journey needs so much planning and advice.

Posted 8 years ago #
Stephan Matthiesen
Member

I don't know the area, but is the Water of Leith Walkway an alternative? It's designated as cycle route and would cover almost all your journey, but I have no idea about surface, width and pedestrian traffic.

Although it's not direct it may well be faster if you can keep going without having to cross roads.

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@stickman So that could be an option, though the other half was pretty doubtful about Ravelston Terrace as the road is narrow and it's also busy with traffic. I can maybe suggest that as an alternative for him and see what he thinks.

I was also wondering if there's a way to loop back up to Orchard Brae House somehow? Like overshoot it and then negotiate residential streets. But that makes the ride convoluted and awkward.

You should have seen me this afternoon. Utterly ridiculous that the last 1/2 mile appears totally impenetrable to anyone except very experienced riders, and even then it's a horrible experience. Also some absolutely shambolic barriers and inaccessibility.

See how wide this road is! This is the junction of death. . Followed by a five minute walk on the pavement, then to be confronted by this hilarious piece of joke infrastructure..

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@stephan I would love this to be the route, but sadly it's pretty muddy, narrow and thick with pedestrians at rush hour so it would be preferable to try and find an alternative route. In summertime it could be the answer? The other half was walking WoL path but had to stop doing it due to the path-wide puddles and inaccessibility in poor weather :(

Posted 8 years ago #
Stephan Matthiesen
Member

@Claire Ah ok, I retract the suggestion then - unless he can find an amphibian bicycle... But perhaps the short section between Roseburn path and Roseburn Cliff saves him the detour along Russell Rd.?

The Russell Rd - Roseburn Path looks like quite a detour. Looking at the map, I would try out Coltbridge Terr, then over to St George School and Crarae Avenue.

It's difficult. My experience (in a completely different area of town) is that you have to spend a while trying out various backstreets to see how they work in practice. I also found that I take a different route in the morning than evening (to avoid right turns and steep hills).

Posted 8 years ago #
unhurt
Member

I might adopt the name "the Junction of Death" for that bit - happily I don't generally have to negotiate it in rush hour, but it's on the easiest route to the best friend's household in Corstorphine...

Posted 8 years ago #
chdot
Admin

This might work

http://m.cyclestreets.net/journey/#51622908/quietest

Don't know what traffic is like on S/GA at relevant time.

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

Thanks for all these suggestions, folks. I will recce the routes on a homewards journey on my regular commute home and take a bit of a detour to check them out.

I am intrigued by the Coltbridge option - and then all the way down Ravelston Terrace and Dean Path. Could be an option?

@chdot - yes! This what I was thinking too. It's pretty circuitous but a possible route as another alternative.

Posted 8 years ago #
Murun Buchstansangur
Member

I do that right turn off South Groathill Avenue sometimes - it's not ideal, uphill once you leave the NEPN, a lot of parked cars forming chicanes with the traffic islands. The right turn itself is into a bollarded off junction which it feels like most following drivers are unprepared for, I always find myself hoping for no oncoming traffic so I don't have to stop dead, 'just in case'. Finally, occasionally cars are illegally parked across the dropped kerb...

Posted 8 years ago #
Stickman
Member

It looks like there is a cut-through to Orchard Brae Avenue beside the roundabout at Queensferry Road/Terrace. If he could go Crarae Ave- Ravelston Dykes-Orchard Road South-Belford Gardens then he could get off to cross the roundabout?

Posted 8 years ago #
LivM
Member

South Groathill AV has had a lot of double yellow lines added recently, especially around the right turn onto the family route, so it's not as bad as it used to be.

Avoid Ravelston Dykes if you can - I've had to start driving it recently now I'm back to work and doing a nursery run, at least until I can get some confidence cycling with toddler in tow, and my commute all the way along and past Stewart's Melville, and I'd not recommend it for a cautious cyclist (lots of school buses and X5s)

Posted 8 years ago #
fimm
Member

I go to Stewart's Melville regularly for a triathlon club swim session and use the NEPN, walk up the nasty ramp and then go straight down Ravelston Dykes and Ravelston Terrace - and I use Ravelston Terrace in my convoluted "avoid the cobbles" Haymarket to Stockbridge route. I find all of that OK, but I'm not going at busy times.

To be honest, Claire, you are not allowed to cycle in Edinburgh unless you a) are two years old and ride a balance bike round a park or b) learn to deal with traffic.

The more he cycles in traffic the more he will get used to it all. Until he does that, trying to cycle while avoiding traffic is going to be the frustrating process you have described. So tell him to man up. ;-)

I'm being sarcastic/cynical for effect, but seriously; this is now, not the future when PoP rules the world. If he wants to cycle now, then he has to deal with now.

Posted 8 years ago #
wingpig
Member

I'd second something Like chdot's NEPN-Groathill-round-the-Orchards thing, to minimise major road time, though the 'quiet, residential' streets still have a bit of negotiating-space-round-parked-cars stuff. Remember the extra cut-through round the north of the council traffic light graveyard to get to Groathill a bit earlier than the main Craigleith junction.

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@fimm, yeah it was a really frustrating experience for me, as personally there are multiple route options here that I would be happy to take as the roads are wide and there is generally space to pass. We took a return route via Blinkbonny Ave, Craigleith Dr and then Craigleith View to cut back on to NEPN and I actually thought that would be ideal if a bit convoluted. But he wasn't happy with the pinch point under the bridge.

When I got home I realised part of the reason he might have been gurning was because it was a very start, stop, start exercise because I don't know the area too well and I wasn't sure where I was going myself. It made it seem a really long and laborious way to get to work, when in reality it would take around 35 mins door to door. Coupled with the cold I think he was probably thinking it was worse than it was.

Saying all that, it is pretty outrageous that a main arterial road in Edinburgh has such appalling provision for cycling. It just reminded me about all the other people I know who have told me they would cycle if they weren't so scared of the roads. I really do get it. It is a terrifying experience for the uninitiated and until they build confidence on quieter and more accessible routes, nervous riders will be severely limited.

If he is too nervous to ride on all these alternative suggestions, then he might just have to hop off and walk the last five - ten minutes until he feels safe enough to ride...

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@stickman - we used that cut through on the way to his work, after crossing QF Road and walking up to the roundabout. I think he would definitely use this, as the access to the car park is on Orchard Brae Avenue and it's a good cheat to avoid QF Road.

So basically, the other half has a problem with Orchard Road South, the pinch point on Craigleith Drive and also Ravelston Terrace. And he doesn't want a round the houses overshot via Groathill if it takes longer. Which are all the main ways to get to the office. SIGH.

I will see if I can coax him. Weirdly he was cycling to Royal Mile from Dalry last summer through some horrible busy roads and this didn't seem to be a problem. Am starting to wonder if he's being obstructive? Hmm. But then, the last jump is pretty nasty so it's not all a ruse.

Posted 8 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Out of interest, how does he normally get to work?

As this is LothianBusEdinburgh I presume PT isn't straightforward either
(or that quick).

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

We live in Corstorphine and he has an awkward commute:

10 minute walk to bus stop
15 minute journey on bus to Roseburn
Gets off at Roseburn and walks via WoL path or gets off at Haymarket and walks down to Orchard Brae. This takes approx 20 mins on foot.

So a total of 30 min walk and 15 min on bus with £50 monthly on the bus pass.

He could save time, cash and get fitter by cycling so I would be delighted if we can figure this out.

Posted 8 years ago #
The Boy
Member

Re: the diff between new commute and riding Dalry - Royal Mile, I can definitely see how wide, fast suburban roads can make one feel much more exposed compared to slow-moving, congested streets like those closer to the city - especially as a nervous/inexperienced cyclist.

First time I rode Clermiston-Comely Bank via Queensferry Rd rather than the hugely around-the-houses Corstorphine-Pinkhill-Roseburn Path-Craigleith Row was truly terrifying.

Posted 8 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Other option would be to cycle to where it got 'complicated' and lock the bike up, then walk.

But...

Posted 8 years ago #
The Boy
Member

And if his PT commute is so awkward, might be worth just walking the last bit anyway? If journey time is the same only riding the bits he's happy to ride, but at a saving of £50/month then seems a no-brainer.

Plus, one builds up confidence over time. He'll likely over time make a cost-benefit analysis where the inconvenience of getting off is no longer overruled by the fear of the traffic.

Edit:

curveball: how flexible is his employer re: working hours? Setting off half an hour earlier can make a huuuge difference to traffic volumes (assuming here that he's 9-5)

Posted 8 years ago #
cb
Member

"This is the junction of death"

I assume this is a reference to the fact that this is literally a junction of death.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/11935236.Pupils_in_tears_as_they_hear_of_crash/

The adjacent fence was covered in flowers for a year afterwards, possibly longer.

Quarter of a century later I still have a tendency to avoid this junction (driving or cycling) as a result. But actually it's a lot better than it was - it used to be more of a straight across layout (albeit on quite a sharp diagonal).

I had thought that the Craigleith View cut through option looked quite good. The pinch point bridge is quite nasty although I do tend to find that drivers are reasonably sensible around it.

NEPN could do with some better links around here.

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@the boy - Good call on that, actually. I would still never cycle QF Road. It is truly terrifying. In winter on my old commute, I used to cycle on the pavement at the Quality Street junction up to the cut through on Clermiston Drive (I wouldn't take the unlit path for fear of getting jumped).

If I won't ride QFR after four years cycling in traffic all over the city then the poor o/h is doomed. I remember I cycled DMains, Ferry Road to my work in Trinity once and vowed I would never ride it again - my heart was in my mouth the whole journey. Horrific!

@chdot - I didn't think of that... I think if I can get him to QF Road without too much stress then he can walk five minutes with the bike to the little cut through that Stickman noted. Still frustrating, but better than nothing. Right?

Posted 8 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"but better than nothing. Right?"

Of course!

Also -

"

“I do remember getting off and pushing round a nasty right turn. I carried on doing this every day for months, until I gained the confidence to claim my rightful place on the road.”

Morningsider on CCE

"

https://cyclefridays.wordpress.com

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@cb - Oh wow, I didn't realise that there had been such an awful accident there. The junction is very bad and I was really worried about o/h negotiating that on a bike. I suggested he get off and walk across the traffic island. I am not telling him what happened there - it will give him the willies. RE the pinch point, this was my argument. I thought it was probably not too bad an option as vehicles have to slow down and take it sensibly...

@the boy - Basically, in his head he wants to go to work on a bike - as a theoretical idea it's all good to him, but once practicalities appear and it's not door to door perfect then the barriers come up. I just need to keep chipping away... He's the same re bike rides generally. Loves riding his bike when I get him on it, but bloody hell, getting him on the bike is a nightmare. He genuinely forgets how much he likes cycling. It is so weird. I have never come across this behaviour before... Every time he cycles with me he's like "wow, this is so quick and it's really good fun" but by the next day he's forgotten. BAFFLING.

Also, re earlier start. Good idea!!!

Posted 8 years ago #
acsimpson
Member

@Claire,

I can't add a better route than those already suggested but I sort of understand your partner's behaviour. Every time I cycle in the rain I end up agreeing with myself that it's really not as bad as I was expecting but I will still try and avoid it. I expect it's because I really don't like starting to ride in the rain.

I'm sure I read a book (Possibly "Predicable Irrational") which explains this sort of behaviour. As a species we are for whatever reason much happier with short term happiness. So even if we know that a short period of discomfort will lead to longer term benefits we wont find it easy to go through the discomfort. This also leads to many of societies issues, eg obesity, bad driving, not saving enough for retirement, etc.

Posted 8 years ago #
cc
Member

How about he gets a folding bike, e.g. a Brompton, then just goes by his usual walk/bus/walk route, but cycling along the bits that feel safe? I imagine that that would be just the Roseburn Path section to start with. And for the rest of it, pop the bike in a bag, or whatever one does with a folding bike.

Then maybe in time he could try devising quiet routes for other sections, e.g. from home to the bus stop, and increase the proportion of the route that's cycled.

Posted 8 years ago #
Stephan Matthiesen
Member

"book (Possibly 'Predicable Irrational')" It's fashionable to write about "Irrationality", but it's dubious whether temporal discounting is in any way "irrational". It may seem illogical that a small discomfort today influences our decision more than a huge benefit in the future, but one has to take into account that uncertainty also increases with time. I may be healthier in 20 years time if I cycle now, but there is also an increasing probability that I won't get the benefit but may suffer from unrelated health effects or meet a violent death before.

This effect only becomes somewhat difficult to understand in modern times when we normally expect to live into our 70s or 80s, but not for our ancestors who had a real risk of getting killed every day (even just one or two generation ago...).

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

@acsimpson - Yes, what you're describing there is pretty similar to the o/h's perspective on cycling. I still find it really bizarre though. It's like as soon as he's off the saddle his brain is reset. I am doing quite well with the chipping away though - it's going to happen. I am going to get him riding to work. Even if it's one day a week. This is my ongoing challenge.

@cc - I like this idea! No least because I want a Brompton... I am not sure it would fit him, though... Does the frame work for someone 6 foot 5? If we got a Brompton you'd just see me cycling into the sunset on it ;)

I am looking forward to speaking to him tonight about all these suggestions!!

Posted 8 years ago #
Claire
Member

I just had a thought, too. I could chum him for a couple of weeks - I can cut through the town to get to Trinity... Plus that would get me up out of my pit earlier in the morning.

Posted 8 years ago #

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