CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News

"The electric bike is not a short-term trend"

(562 posts)
  • Started 15 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from Baldcyclist

No tags yet.


  1. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Sir Chris, like Robert Förstemann, is an explosive weightlifter on wheels. Förstemann demonstrated his ability to power a toaster just long enough to make one piece of toast. That is a lot of energy to generate.

    When I trained, my best peak power was about 1100W, but that wasn't sustainable over several minutes; 300-400W was my absolute limit. My counterpart, Ken Buckley, was good for over 1600W peak.

    The average human is happy generating 50-100W continuously. That's why the electric assist limit of 250W is fairly sensible for non-heavy duty applications, and why all those chancers haring around on their illegal 4kW 'e-bikes' are really riding bicycle-type-motorcycles.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Knew I was asking for it when I posted that!

    Posted 1 month ago #
  3. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "The average human is happy generating 50-100W continuously."

    This helps my ego a bit, all of my 'apps' tell me I'm a feable specimin of a human, I'm right in the middle of that ish for a 2 hour commute home. (can output much more for short periods, but certainly can't sustain anything more than 150W for any period of time)

    Posted 1 month ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin


    Okay, so say you’re interested. What are the practicalities? Something I’ve heard a lot over the years is “Well, you can’t carry as much as you can in a car. What if I want to buy a fridge?” For some reason it’s always a fridge. Well, firstly, it’s 2025: you can have a fridge delivered these days if you need one. No-one is claiming that a bike like this can do everything a car can. Although if you really wanted to haul a fridge on your bike… Well, there are ways.

    https://road.cc/content/feature/i-saved-thousands-using-e-cargo-bike-314005

    Posted 1 month ago #
  5. LaidBack
    Member

    Good Tern GSD focused article (sponsored by Tern). ;-)

    Nothing wrong with GSD except comments section remarks on the price.

    Answer to that is you're saving substantially by getting rid of a second car. Or just not buying a car at all.

    Customer at weekend came round with a non electric Helios tandem and reminded me that was a popular choice pre- the long tail era.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  6. Dave
    Member

    The way I look at the power thing is that car displacement could be significantly better with more powerful motors without an appreciable risk to other road users (not that I expect anything to be done about it).

    When I put the kids on our cargo bike we're getting 250W of power across 200kg of kerb weight, or ~1.25W per kg. When my better half rides just a normal ebike, the all in-weight is say 75kg depending on luggage and suddenly you're up at 4W per kg. We saw up-thread that Chris Hoy enjoyed about 25W per kg with his legs alone.

    For most people most of the time, they will get up to the 15mph cut-off pretty quickly and at that point different levels of motor power aren't distinguishable. When we ride down into town, we're often going over 20mph without any assist at all.

    The big difference is when you want to carry more weight uphill. I find it really uncomfortable to be doing sub-10mph and in the end it truncated our use of the cargo bike as a car replacement.

    It's tempting to see this as a 'thin end of the wedge' argument but I prefer to think of it as the initial arbitrary 250W having been poorly chosen against the kind of jobs that naturally fall into a bike's potential performance envelope (where you could define that as: the kind of load that you can comfortably put on the bike, just not ride it uphill)

    The day your kid turns 16 you can pop them on a fully legal 4,000W moped with an absolute basic amount of admin/training and they can enjoy up to 40W/kg. I don't think fears of ebike regulation are necessarily misplaced, but it's quite annoying that a moral panic is limiting light electric transport like it is.

    Sometimes it feels like the gatekeeping between bikes and ebikes has moved on from "no true cyclist needs an ebike" to "no true cyclist needs an ebike that does more than 250W". Maybe there's an overton window at play here

    Posted 1 month ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    “Sometimes it feels like the gatekeeping between bikes and ebikes has moved on from "no true cyclist needs an ebike" to "no true cyclist needs an ebike that does more than 250W" “

    Well

    There were definitely ‘cyclists’ who were, to use a word, ‘snobbish’ about bikes with batteries.

    I think this has disappeared.

    The 250W limit, as you say, is restricting development and use of cargo bikes.

    This is (most people would probably agree) ‘unfortunate’ - and needs addressing.

    Can’t be too hard to get a useable definition (I’m sure there are plenty of suggested ‘solutions’.)

    Can’t be many ‘cyclists’ who would object(?)

    Posted 1 month ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin


    In recent weeks, the e-bike industry has frothed itself into a lather over Peak Power. All kinds of insinuations about regulatory implications have been spoken. BikeBiz wanted to get a non-motor manufacturer-based sense of what’s happening and why. To do this, we spoke with renowned e-bike and eMobility expert, Hannes Neupert.

    Bosch likely doesn’t want you to hear what Hannes has to say. You can judge for yourself why that is, as we explore key points from our hour-long conversation.

    Hannes, lets talk about the hot topic of Peak Power, one on which Bosch seems to be lobbying hard. Is there a regulatory risk here?

    https://bikebiz.com/e-bikes-peak-power-and-regulatory-implications-a-conversation-with-hannes-neupert/amp/

    Posted 1 month ago #
  9. le_soigneur
    Member

    It is all really semantics like how many angels fit on the head of a pin, when unrestricted/unregulated/hacked Battery-2-Wheelers are so widespread that pandora's box has been opened and the authorities do not have the will to close it. E-scooters included. 90% of those teens that used unlicenced petrol motorbikes have now switched to B2Ws because they are far better for dodging about on and have plenty of power for their weight.

    This will eventually go the way of the red-flag act because any law that is so widely ignored takes away credibility and has to be replaced with a practical law.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  10. neddie
    Member

    Might as well get rid of the laws on handheld mobile use at the wheel, speeding, dogs loose in the front, phone mounted in driver’s field of vision, and illegal front window tints, as every second driver is breaking at least one of those rules

    Posted 1 month ago #
  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    While cycling into town this morning I was suddenly struck by the notion that in Edinburgh, and given the march of technology, we will probably see e-bikes (in any shape or form) outnumbering non-electric bikes before we have even completed the next one or two of the major active travel projects: a case of people adapting to the roads (yet again - vehicular cycling being the first), rather than the roads being adapted to the people.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    “probably see e-bikes (in any shape or form) outnumbering non-electric bikes“

    Interesting observation/prediction.

    Do you think this is/would be because of longish commutes or just more people switching away from habitual car use as they now have a ‘realistic’ alternative?

    Posted 1 month ago #
  13. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I think a lot of e-bike riders in future will be people opting not to buy a car. I also tend to think it's not so much about longer commutes but Edinburgh's hilly nature.

    This morning I think at least half of all the cycle commuters I saw were riding e-bikes of various types and performance.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    Thanks

    Will be interesting to see how CEC’s forthcoming(?) hire fleet (all electric) changes perceptions/purchases.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  15. LaidBack
    Member

    @Dave

    The big difference is when you want to carry more weight uphill. I find it really uncomfortable to be doing sub-10mph and in the end it truncated our use of the cargo bike as a car replacement.

    It's tempting to see this as a 'thin end of the wedge' argument but I prefer to think of it as the initial arbitrary 250W having been poorly chosen against the kind of jobs that naturally fall into a bike's potential performance envelope (where you could define that as: the kind of load that you can comfortably put on the bike, just not ride it uphill)

    When selling these items a lot of this is true. Initially new riders are bit scared of an e-bike having too much power but that changes as they haul up hills in city.
    So most LB cargobike potential riders come from mainly 'cycle aware' backgrounds.
    • often first e-bike they have ever ridden
    • want exercise hauling family rather than driving to gym
    • have seen another person on same bike doing same thing
    • dropping off children on way to work
    • maybe have a car already but see advantages of parking where they want

    Others find:
    • cargobike hard to ride at first
    • not used to gearing
    • kickstand awkward to get bike onto - easier to get off

    New Bosch CargoLine offers an energy saving Auto mode that serves up power when needed so extends range. Still 85Nm max assist = up to 700W assist for short spells (approx)

    Bosch are bringing out new motor with 100Nm of assist. This will challenge gearing hubs. (IntraDrive in Edinbugh make a geared motor but only in smaller quantities so far).

    If you buy an Urban Arrow or any e-bike in USA you will be assisted up to 20mph as legal.

    Bafang system on our cargo-trike has a walk assist throttle so you can get extra help on start with laden bike. This walk assist feature is weaker and hard to use on other makes.

    Agree that if we want to shift people away from driving then power for a cargo bike could be higher or could benefit from better design. Mere bike components though need to be tougher hence geared motor is a good idea.

    Pre-electric people just cycled with children on trailer bike or tandem (Circe Helios). Some still do but new waves seem to be wedded to e-assist.

    Posted 1 month ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

  17. chdot
    Admin

    Cycling has the image of being dominated by sporty men, but thanks to e-bikes, the barriers are coming down, writes Bath Councillor and family cycling writer Saskia Heijltjes. Here she answers the common questions cycling beginners have put to her over the years…

    Cycling is for everyone, regardless of gender, age or ability. Many European countries are living proof of this – in the Netherlands, for example, women make more bicycle trips than men. Now, some might say that we cannot compare the Netherlands to the UK because of the hills, and that’s where e-bikes come in. An e-bike can flatten those hills by giving you that extra support when needed.

    https://www.cyclingelectric.com/in-depth/cycling-for-beginners-getting-started-e-bike

    Posted 1 month ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

  19. chdot
    Admin


    With the launch of the Raleigh ONE, we’re not just unveiling a new e-bike – we’re ushering in a new era of urban mobility.

    https://bikebiz.com/raleigh-unveils-the-raleigh-one-a-one-gear-and-one-size-e-bike/amp/

    Posted 3 days ago #
  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    Sales of illegal and dangerous ebikes must be stopped, say MPs and peers

    All-party group concerned about hazards caused by bikes, with focus on use by delivery drivers and risk of fire

    Ministers must urgently act to stop the sale of illegal and potentially lethal electric bikes, with a particular focus on their use by gig economy delivery riders, a committee of MPs and peers has said.

    The rapid spread of highly powered bikes or conversion kits causes hazards on the roads and can lead to fires because of cheaply made batteries, the report by the all-party parliamentary group for cycling and walking said, calling it “a crisis hiding in plain sight”.

    This was even having a detrimental impact on active travel, the report said, with some travel networks and workplaces banning all ebikes from their premises, and people with legal ebikes being refused insurance.

    ...

    (Interesting that insurance should be mentioned, given that you aren't required to have insurance to ride an EAPC-compliant ebike on the road. I wonder what kind of insurance they had in mind?)

    Posted 3 days ago #
  21. neddie
    Member

    And yet we've had over-powered cars causing hazards on the roads and leading to fires because of petrol for more than a century.

    Double standards

    #CarBrain
    #MotorNormativity

    Posted 2 days ago #
  22. Baldcyclist
    Member

    " I wonder what kind of insurance they had in mind?"

    Probably home insurance, you try to insure your bikes with your contents insurance, you tell them the brand/model and value of your bikes. They spot an ebike in there and refuse to insure because of increased fire risk.

    Same for electric cars, some insurers won't cover if they know you have an electric car, beacuse a few of them have gone up in flames, and taken houses with them.

    Posted 2 days ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin