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"The electric bike is not a short-term trend"

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  1. LaidBack
    Member

    @acsimpson

    ...pedelecs are only allowed to have 250W motors in them. Can anyone tell me what this means for bikes such as the Urban Arrow which have 4-500W motors.

    Just to clarify... The UA uses a standard Bosch 250W motor with a battery capacity of 400W or 500W.
    Other makes such as Shimano and Yamaha use similar values on their Li-ion packs.
    When used in cargo bikes the software is changed to deliver more power when setting off.
    250 watts delivered to pedals can give torque values of up to 75nm. (ie quite enough to do a loaded hill start).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. BenN
    Member

    @14Westfield - As the owner of the last generation of said Gtech ebike I can attest to its sluggliness when the battery runs out. Not only does the lack of gearing make Edinburgh a tricky prospect, but the rear hub actually seems to add friction when not travelling above 10mph (so, when it reaches max speed and the motor cuts out it's OK, but it's difficult to get going without it)

    Having said that, I sweat profusely, and it allows me to get into work every day (only two miles) dry as a bone in under 10 minutes - so £999 well spent for my purposes!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. acsimpson
    Member

    @Laidback, thanks. So the regulation is based on motor continuous load rating but the controller is allowed to deliver more than that rating.

    This site explains it in more details if anyone else is interested:http://www.ebikeschool.com/myth-ebike-wattage/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. Greenroofer
    Member

    Expert review of the Gtech bike discussed earlier: https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/bikes/electric/product/gtech-ebike-review-52200/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    Relocating from the south east of England, Cyclotricity will manufacture electric bicycles thanks to a £120,000 RSA grant, creating the new manufacturing jobs at its Glenrothes headquarters.

    https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/business/a-high-tech-future-for-fife-and-new-jobs-1-4795530

    https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/standard-power-bikes-from-649-99.html

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

  7. ejstubbs
    Member

    @LaidBack: Just to clarify... The UA uses a standard Bosch 250W motor with a battery capacity of 400W or 500W.

    Sorry to be picky, but battery capacity is measured in watt hours, not watts. It's a measure of the amount of energy that can be stored in the battery, not the battery's power output.

    The SI unit of energy is the joule, which is the amount of energy required to move one metre against a resisting force of one newton. It's roughly the amount of energy required to lift a normal-sized apple through a height of one metre. Or two apples half a metre. Or half an apple two metres. You get the idea.

    The watt is the unit of power, which is the rate at which energy is expended, in joules per second. Thus, to lift one apple through one metre in one second requires one watt of power. To lift the same apple the same distance in half a second requires two watts. Do it in two seconds and you only need half a watt of power. Either way, though, it still uses one joule of energy.

    The watt hour is a non-SI-sanctioned unit of energy. Simply put, it's the amount of energy expended in an hour by a system with a constant power consumption of one watt. Since a watt is one joule per second, a watt hour is 3600 joules.

    The normal symbol for the watt hour is "Wh". (Again, this goes against the SI sanctioned form, which requires either a non-breaking space or a centre dot between the two 'base' units. Note also that the symbol for the watt - which is correctly written with a lower case "w" - is upper case "W". This is because the unit is named after a person. Hence also the symbol for joules is J, and for newtons it's N.)

    So, to cut to the chase: a 500 Wh battery can, theoretically, provide energy to a motor producing a continuous 250 W of power for two hours. (More SI pedantry there: the number and the unit should also be separated by a space.)

    Interestingly, the Bosch eBike range assistant does indicate that my eMTB should have a range of ~50 km if ridden in the highest assistance "turbo" mode at an average speed of 25 kph - ie, in two hours. More interestingly, if you make the terrain more hilly, the surface rougher or the headwind stronger the range goes down. That might seem obvious, but it does suggest that the Bosch controller is actually able to let the motor run at more than 250 W output some of the time - as suggested by the link provided by greenroofer (albeit that is to a web site which seems to be oriented more towards DIY ebikes than off-the-shelf pedelecs which are supposed to be compliant with EU directive 2002/24/EC.)

    It's almost enough to tempt me to try to put an ammeter on the circuit which supplies power to the motor of my eMTB, just to see what it can can be persuaded to draw...

    250 watts delivered to pedals can give torque values of up to 75nm. (ie quite enough to do a loaded hill start).

    Firstly, with my annoying pedant's hat on again, "nm" is the symbol for nanometres (there is no space between the prefix and unit symbol). The symbol for the SI derived unit for torque, the newton metre, is "N m".

    Secondly, another way to calculate power is as the product of torque and rotational speed (in radians per second). If a motor is producing 75 N m of torque at a power output of 250 W, that means that the output shaft is rotating at ~30 rpm. You'd need to know your ebike's gearing and wheel size to turn that in to a road speed but I think on my eMTB it's about 2.5mph. My calculations were complicated by the unexpected discovery that the chainwheel on my eMTB is not directly connected to the pedals - there seems to be some kind of epicyclic gear in there which means that the chainwheel turns roughly three to four times faster than the pedals (which explains why the chainwheel is so small). I think it's like this in order to allow the motor to spin at a reasonable speed even at a low pedalling cadence/low speed - and possibly also to keep the low speed torque down to a controllable level, since electric motors produce more torque the slower they run.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. wingpig
    Member

    One of our physics teachers seemed to delight in telling us how easy we had it with these fancy modern mostly-metric derived units, whereas back in his day he had to wangle various multiples of 8, 12, 16 and 20 in calculations. Fortunately he was probably prevented by the curriculum from giving us exam questions requiring conversion from British Thermal Units per farthing or cubic furlongs per drachm.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    On the wildlife thread @jdanielp came within a haresbreadth of implying that shrews are rodents. I let it go.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. jdanielp
    Member

    @IWRATS a shrewd decision.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. gembo
    Member

    Maybe a hare's breath? But in journal of the international standard of narrow margins the usage is given as Hair's breadth as you well know

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. neddie
    Member

    "Gnat's ba' hair" is closer!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    @neddie gnat is closer,gnat's crotchet?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. LaidBack
    Member

    @ejstubbs

    Lots of points there. I stand corrected!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. acsimpson
    Member

    @ejstubbs, Thanks for the comprehensive explanation. It's a true pedant's delight and I shall bookmark if for future reference. I didn't know the details about unit spacing before.

    I think you are referring to my link to the DIY ebike page rather than Greenroofers. As far as I can see they are talking about ensuring that the outcomes of their DIY work are legal, as opposed to other sites which suggest using high power motors with no markings on the casing.

    The relevant (only?) part of EU directive 2002/24/EC for pedelecs is:

    "cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an
    auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
    rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is
    progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle
    reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops
    pedalling,"

    So the only part of the hardware setup which is specified is the motor's continuous rating. Most (all?) motors are capable of running higher than their continuous rating for short periods of time at that is how bikes like the Urban Arrow deliver sufficient power to get 250Kg moving up a hill.

    I suppose the risk with any system like that is that unless you measure motor temperature the controller has no way of knowing how much power is too much for the motor. Alternatively if you know the motor has a peak power rating too then you could work within that. Both of these would be harder for a DIY solution.

    As an aside from the above regulation I wonder if the phrase "...the output is progressively reduced..." has any real meaning.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. Arellcat
    Moderator

    So the only part of the hardware setup which is specified is the motor's continuous rating. Most (all?) motors are capable of running higher than their continuous rating for short periods of time...

    The EAPC Amendment regs 2013 refers the reader to EU regulation 168/2013, article 3 (35), which "defines 'maximum continuous rated power' as the maximum thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric engine as set out in United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE) regulation No 85, annex 6." Annex 6 takes into account any likelihood of overheating by placing an upper limit on allowable temperature variation from the manufacturer's specification.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. neddie
    Member

    I think the rules are different for DIY e-bikes. E.g. you can convert a standard bike to an e-bike and use a higher-wattage motor than 250W.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    This is quite interesting:

    http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

    noting that even specifying continuous power is fraught with caveats. The limiting factor is really torque, and the amount of heat (via resistance) that is being dumped into the metal of the motor. 250W for 30 minutes could indeed mean a controller allowing for momentary or shorter loads much higher than the testing regime would specify. My ancient hi-fi amplifer is a modest 20W but has huge output transistors that let it cope with high transient voltages and currents without going up in smoke.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    unless you measure motor temperature the controller has no way of knowing how much power is too much for the motor

    My ancient electric drill has a thermal cut-out. Surely a Bosch bike motor has a thermocouple of some kind?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    @neddie: I think the rules are different for DIY e-bikes. E.g. you can convert a standard bike to an e-bike and use a higher-wattage motor than 250W.

    But then you would have built yourself an electric moped or motorcycle, which would have to be registered, and taxed etc etc:

    https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

    "Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet."

    I think the main 'rule' for DIY electric bicycles is that there are significant regulatory hoops that have to be jumped through (eg type approval) before they can be legal to ride anywhere other than on private property with the permission of the landowner.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    EU Member States can ‘decide ourselves’ on e-bike motor vehicles third-party liability insurance law, according to Dutch infrastructure state secretary Stientje van Veldhoven.

    https://www.bikebiz.com/business/eu-commission-proposal-does-not-result-in-a-required-insurance-for-e-bikes

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. ejstubbs
    Member

    @acsimpson: I suppose the risk with any system like that is that unless you measure motor temperature the controller has no way of knowing how much power is too much for the motor.

    I think Arellcat's posting after yours covers that fairly well. Yes (per Arellcat's subsequent posting) there can still be wrinkles and complications in the measuring regime but I would expect that a mainstream manufacturer of e-bikes is going to err fairly heavily on the side of caution (ie not allowing the motor to run at excessive power outputs) in the interests of reliability.

    This is easy to achieve by controlling the current that is supplied to the motor via the computer thingy on the handlebars and the motor control circuitry within the motor assembly itself. So if you want to limit the motor to 250 W maximum output then, with a 36 V battery you just need to cap the current at just under 7 A (since electrical power is volts times amps, and batteries cannot be persuaded to provide a higher voltage than rated.)

    You could think of it like a tap controlling the flow of water from a tank. The capacity of the tank in litres is equivalent to the watt hour capacity of the battery. The tap (or valve) controls how fast the water flows. With the tap wide open the tank will empty faster than if the tap is half closed. If the thing the water is flowing to - such as a turbine, perhaps - can't handle anything above a certain flow rate then you can limit how far the tap can be opened, or restrict the width of the pipe, eg in the use case I suggested, in order to prevent the turbine from running over its rated speed, or simply exploding due to over-pressure (this is what can happen when a hydroelectric turbine has a bad day.)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chdot: As far as I can see there is nothing in that Bikebiz article which wasn't in Carlton Reid's Bikebiz piece written on the day the draft directive was published.

    What's not completely clear is whether the term "electric bicycles" as used in the draft directive is intended to mean specifically and only EAPCs. If not then it seems to give member states the option to exempt all electrically propelled bicycles from the requirement to have third party insurance.

    However, the UK government's current position is as I quoted in my response to neddie earlier. It appears to be completely compliant with the draft directive. IMO therefore: there's nothing to see here, move along...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. I were right about that saddle
    Member

  25. chdot
    Admin

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    Fiona Hyslop of the SNP has had a go for first time on a lecky bike this weekend

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. LaidBack
    Member

    We sold our first Bosch bike in 2013 to Weezee. Nice to see London catching up ;-)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. steveo
    Member

    I'm trying to work out how get an assist bike from the office into that headwind and still return with my normal bike tomorrow.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    Hire bikes need trailer hitches...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. steveo
    Member

    Now I'd pay my £2 for that!

    Posted 6 years ago #

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