CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News

More of us - Less of us

(52 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by HankChief
  • Latest reply from acsimpson

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  1. HankChief
    Member

    Good & bad...

    My neighbour did her first cycle to work today and loved it.

    A friend I advised last month has now admitted to being 'hooked'.

    Both were concerned about safe routes and were surprised when I told them that there were reasonably good routes going where they wanted. They just didn't know about them (NEPN & Quiet routes).

    But...

    Another pal is currently in the ERI awaiting surgery to fix his chin & has lost several teeth from a car pulling out in front of him.

    Just makes me so frustrated that the latent demand is there and whilst we can all do a bit to persuade others to try it, we aren't going to get anywhere unless we protect those already cycling.

    The impact on my mate isn't good but the impact on others (both current and potential cyclists) is much bigger, because the decision to put yourself on a bike and mix with traffic is an emotional one - it needs much more positive reinforcements.

    I do despair some times.

    It shouldn't be this way...

    Posted 7 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    Is pal a recently started cycler?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  3. HankChief
    Member

    The one in ERI is a long term cyclist/roadie and occasional poster on CCE.

    I haven't heard much about the incident itself and will let him tell that tale.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @HankChief

    That sounds horrible - hope your pal can be fully restored.

    Part of the problem with promoting cycling in our environment is the assymetry of the health impacts. A smashed face versus a slowly developing spare tyre, a distant stroke or an apparently unconnected suicide. Cycling can easily be portrayed as risky and not cycling as safe, even when the opposite is true.

    The obvious way to combat this is to keep us away from automobiles. Adults very rarely fall off bikes unless forced to do so by automobiles.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Adults very rarely fall off bikes unless forced to do so by automobiles."

    In my 16 odd years of commuting I think I've come off about 10 times.

    2 x breaking chain
    1 x breaking pedal (on video)
    3 x ice (including twice on segregated cyclepaths)
    1 x collapsed road sign in the wet
    1 x tram line
    1 x hit a car in a filtering fail (on video)
    1 x hit by a car

    So I've got (roughly, and not including when bike racing) a 10% fall rate caused by automobiles. Am I unusual/fall off more often?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  6. Min
    Member

    I fall off too frequently to count. WC can attest to at least one of those!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  7. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    And I think I did very well not to laugh....

    Posted 7 years ago #

  8. neddie
    Member

    1 x collapsed road sign in the wet

    But was the road sign 'collapsed' because it had been run over by an automobile?

    Perhaps indirectly a fall caused by an auto?

    Posted 7 years ago #

  9. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Suspect it was more the howling winds overnight (it was a temporary roadworks sign, and the workmen hadn't yet arrived in the morning).

    Posted 7 years ago #

  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Interesting!

    Let me think...in nearly thirty years of city cycling;

    1) Wound up sitting on top of an estate car in Schoolhill, Aberdeen after it stopped for an ambulance and I was snoozing. No harm done.
    2) Skited up Grange Loan on my backside after meeting black ice for the first time. Dazed and lucky.
    3) Flattened a young lady pedestrian on Dundas Street in a filtering incident. Torn bib leggings.
    4) Pancaked on the Lady Road to Sainsburys roundabout after a dude pulled out and I hit the anchors. Suspect diesel spill, that's my story etc. Bruise the size and shape of Africa, elbow out of jacket.
    5) Became entangled in my frame after meeting black ice on Savile Place with only one studded tyre fitted. Minor cuts and bruises, pride all gone due to aged lady walking toy dog rushing to my aid. 'It was bound to happen sooner or later' is a good phrase to keep handy when a pekinese is sniffing you cautiously as you lie in the road.
    6) Fell into deep frozen slush mud on the canal at Wester Hailes. (Same day as 5) above.) Had to shower with my clothes on I was so caked.
    7) Blown off stationary bike at the Reid Memorial Church traffic lights. Unhurt, but amazed.

    So pretty much one tumble every five years. Ice mostly, then cars and lack of observation.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  11. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    #7 is brilliant!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Wilmington's Cow

    I'm pretty hard core in the commuter stakes, but I turned back and took the bus that day. I think it's the only time I've ever done that.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  13. steveo
    Member

    I'm wary playing this game, its tempting fate.

    But... 6 (or seven) year commuting
    1) Piled in to the back of a car performing an emergency stop after another car at the side of the road failed to shut its door, 23c tyres are no match for a sports cars brakes.

    2) fell off in snow at the bottom of my street, very cold ride to work.

    3) Chain snapped on the fixed as I pulled away; pride, non cycle specific trousers, and front wheel in tatters.

    4) rode in to a soft verge and came clattering down giving me shin splints for weeks.

    I do seem statistically unlucky.

    I was blown backwards on the fixed once waiting to turn right across Gorgie Road, I managed to stay on the bike but opted to walk across.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  14. wingpig
    Member

    Hmmm.
    1981-ish: the first and only time I pulled the front brake on a new-to-me bike too hard.
    1988-ish: front wheel dropped out of the forks going through a big wheel-rut sticky mud puddle on a woodland path.
    1990-ish: hit a brick which someone had placed in the middle of a down-ramp on the woodland tracks we called the ups-and-downs. Hole through upper lip, but the tooth which did it was unharmed.
    1992-ish: gently went into the back of a parked car when my newspaperbag dragged my handlebars sideways.
    2004-ish: forced to swerve and fall over sideways when left-hooked by someone turning into Warriston Road from the mini-roundabout which used to live at Canonmills. Slightly bent mudguard.
    2005-ish: one incident of falling into a wire fence when a ned pushed me off. Gash to the eyebrow caused by the ned's bottle when I was off the bike.
    Later in 2005-ish: one incident of sliding off going down the mound in what I assume to have been something which leaked out of a bus. Four stitches to the chin and enough knackered components to persuade me to get a whole new bike.
    2012-ish: slid off sideways in mud on the NEPN on the curve just south of the red bridge.
    2013-ish: slid off sideways in mud on the Telford path just south of the tunnel.
    Late 2014: scooped up and dropped to the ground by the bonnet of a Vectra. Scraped ankle and hand and multiple dead components and frame.
    I've had a few chainsnaps, rear-wheel-eating-derailleur moments, tyre-blowouts and one of those front-wheel-rim-failure things but didn't fall off.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  15. Roibeard
    Member

    Really what is meant is that people on bikes don't spontaneously KSI themselves, with the possible exception of elite athletes during competition.

    So it's similar to walking, yes, people slip on ice and a few unfortunate folk break bones in this way, but if you end up as a KSI stat, then the odds are pretty good that a vehicle was involved.

    Even cyclist+cyclist or cyclist+pedestrian collisions are no where near as damaging as those involve orders of measure more energy.

    To drift back on topic, everyday cycling is not seen as risky because of risk of spontaneous falling off, but being knocked off. I suspect that older folk similarly may not fear walking (excluding bad weather) so much as fear crossing busy roads...

    (Yep, I know that some of us will get to the stage that even the quiet stroll will be difficult, but regular exercise will probably aid in delaying that!)

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  16. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "Really what is meant is that people on bikes don't spontaneously KSI themselves, with the possible exception of elite athletes during competition.
    So it's similar to walking, yes, people slip on ice and a few unfortunate folk break bones in this way, but if you end up as a KSI stat, then the odds are pretty good that a vehicle was involved"

    Though that's not really what the original statement said, it was simply 'falling off'.

    And in my list I had one serious injury, and that was my chain breaking.

    One night leaving work there was a chap lying face down in the street, blood pouring out, an ambulance on its way, after he'd crashed while riding drunk.

    My broken arm was a pedal strike on the ground in a park (granted training for racing).

    Anecdata the lot of it granted, but unless there are some stats on KSI of non-elite cyclists being more than 50% caused by motor vehicles, I'm still sceptical, and do think (personal opinion, without stats) that most cyclist injuries requiring hospital treatment are not the result of motor vehicle interaction (are we allowed to include mountainbikers at trail centres in the KSI stats? If so the motor vehicle stats are going to be dwarfed!).

    Someone will now produce the stats to prove me wrong, I know that'll happen, and once they do I'll admit I was wrong.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  17. tammytroot
    Member

    Eight years commuting, been on the ground 3 times. Once due to car door opening suddenly, and twice avoiding pedestrians!
    Joggers with earphones in are bad enough but I think using a mobile phone while walking should be outlawed!

    Posted 7 years ago #

  18. Klaxon
    Member

    Are we doing the fall of shame list?

    ~2004 tried to take the smooth kerb line under the canal bridge at Harrison Park and went for a swim
    2016 rear wheel slipped out under braking on rural gravel track

    That's about it for memorable ones

    Posted 7 years ago #

  19. Roibeard
    Member

    Someone will now produce the stats to prove me wrong

    Challenge accepted...

    <grin>

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  20. amir
    Member

    I've had a few spills (I am trying to blank them out of my mind). Just one was directly due to poor driving but another was due to oil on the road - so indirect. Only one of my spills might be officially recorded because I got taken away in an ambulance and had a couple of nights in a hospital (two CCE witnesses). But this wasn't caused by a vehicle.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  21. amir
    Member

    What the contributions to the thread show is that the KSI stats may be the tip of the iceberg in terms of spills.I think all of these may have an effect on people stopping cycling. In comparison, when pedestrianising I've only had one spill (and that was on the way to the bike shed - and I had a helmet on!).

    Posted 7 years ago #

  22. Roibeard
    Member

    2011 GB Figures

    5% of reported incidents are single vehicle incidents (including 2% with pedestrians), 92% are two vehicle incidents (80% with cars, 8% with goods vehicles, 2% buses, 0% other cyclists). 94% of casualties are the cyclist themselves.

    Just looking at KSI, 8% are single vehicle (inc pedestrian). 92% involve motorised vehicles.

    Granted these figures are unlikely to include off road accidents, but the KSI figures are 3,192 in 2011, which seems high (and newsworthy) were it because of a leisure activity...

    Turning the question the other way, our KSI stats for cyclists are on a par with countries with segregation (per capita), which means that they're much much safer per km travelled, so why exactly are our KSIs not lower? It's because we mix it with high energy vehicles.

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  23. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Seems to be every 3 yaers for something serious, numerous minor incidents inbetween.

    Serious including:
    3 broken ribs after collision with cyclist at blind bend on A8 cyclepath at RBS.

    Some bad road rash, and 'the fear' after being hit by a car on Scotstoun Ave in S Queensferry. Didn't cycle for 3 months after that.

    Hit sunken pothole at 20mph at Aberdour beach, gashed elbow and knee. Elbow still painfull at times after a year.

    All of above happened on cycle infrastructure, or 'quiet' cycle routes.

    Minor includes falling off bike in kitchen, ice stuff, some falling because of oil. I once fell off in front of a bus as the lights went green. Still don't actually know what happened, luckilly the bus driver managed to stop.

    One of the Dutch advocates on Twitter made a case to me after one incident that 'British' cyclists are unsafe due to our silly positions on road bikes, and the fact we use cleated pedals.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  24. jdanielp
    Member

    I have come off my bike on three occasions during the last 7+ years of regular commuting, all on the towpath:

    1. misjudging the robustness of overhanging vegetation near the Calder Road Bridge which yanked my handlebar around and led to me being deposited into the surprisingly comfortable and dry reedbed opposite;
    2. colliding with a pedestrian who abruptly moved from one side of the path to the other after I rang my bell before passing - he half-caught me as I veered into a bush in an effort to avoid an unavoidable collision;
    3. colliding almost head on with a cyclist who decided to pull out from behind her cycling partner despite the fact that I was in the process of passing him.

    I merely suffered minor scrapes and the chain falling off.

    I also had three offs on non-commutes during that time, again, all of which took place on off-road cycle paths:

    1. coming down a steep muddy slope soon after I had switched from MTB to hybrid tyres, but I had a very gentle landing, face-first into a patch of nettles;
    2. attempting to take a sharp corner slowly on a layer of wet leaves - this put a hole in my winter jacket.
    3. veering off an easy optional log balance obstacle at Glentress and falling back onto the gravel track, which is my most unpleasant injury on a bicycle to date...

    Those took place on my old hybrid-MTB commuter (apart from Glentress). The last two years on my Charge Grater have been fall-free.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  25. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    @Roibeard I'm going to challenge those stats (mainly because I found them as well so had a chance to look). Those stats are for incidents reporting 'to the police'. "A considerable proportion of non-fatal accidents are not reported to the police. More information on this can be found in article 6 of Reported Road Casualties GB 2011"

    I would suspect the grand majority of 'hit by a car' incidents, especially involving injury, would be reported to the police; whereas the grand majority of 'fell off and broke something' incidents wouldn't be.

    Certainly when I cracked my head off the road and was briefly knocked out there was no police involvement.

    What we need are stats for injuries admitted to hospital...

    You're right though, we do have higher stats than countries with segregation, but might not be entirely down to not mixing with motor vehicles (some might be of course). There was a video did the rounds from Denmark a number of years ago about Copenhagen riders slipping on ice - because of the segregation there is more of a tendency to use upright 'comfortable' bikes, and if you skid on ice you're more upright, can get your feet down to hold yourself up. It was really enlightening, watching and realising that such a simple thing can have such an impact (pun intended) on not falling off.

    I remain to be convinced <returns grin>

    Posted 7 years ago #

  26. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    "One of the Dutch advocates on Twitter made a case to me after one incident that 'British' cyclists are unsafe due to our silly positions on road bikes, and the fact we use cleated pedals."

    Just noticed this. Yep, that's the view I got from speaking to folk in Denmark and being shown the video I mention above.

    Posted 7 years ago #

  27. Coxy
    Member

    Have lost count of the number of times I have come off mountain biking. But commuting:

    SPD incident 1: Stopped on Porty Prom to look at seals. Forgot about new clipless pedals

    SPD incident 2: Looking for place to park bike at Western General and clipped curb.

    Innocent railway: wheelie fail!

    Fishwives causeway: not paying attention to road litter when riding without hands

    Ice: once, ending in cracked helmet (bike helmet)

    Only hit by motor vehicle once - that was a motor bike sliding across road after it had been hit by car coming out of a junction. No-one hurt.

    86% my fault and no one else involved
    14% another's fault (vehicle related)

    Posted 7 years ago #

  28. Roibeard
    Member

    @WC What we need are stats for injuries admitted to hospital

    That's why I restricted my discussion to KSI, due to under-reporting of minor injuries.

    How about some Canadian hospitalisation (overnight stay) figures by cause?

    http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/11/e008052/T1.expansion.html

    Comes with a nice breakdown between on-road and off-road, but mostly excludes deaths, so SI only.

    So, including off-road incidents, 19% were with motorised vehicles, 3% with pedestrians, animals or cyclists, and 68% involved no collision or collision with a stationary object.

    However 61% of the no collision incidents did not occur on a public road, so running the numbers just for on-road incidents returns 34% motorised, 4% squishy things (people, cyclists, animals) and 51% no collision (or stationary object).

    Finnish results from a single hospital are even worse, with 80% involving a cyclist alone.

    So looks like I'm wrong (for Canada and Finland at least)!

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  29. Roibeard
    Member

    Finally, English results

    Non-collision injuries requiring a bed make up 70% of hospitalisations but only 30% of non collision incidents require treatment at all and presumably much of that 30% are treated without requiring a bed as "most injuries are relatively minor".

    The authors of this are confident that the primary issues are slippery road surfaces, contact with kerbs and rail lines and poor road surfaces (which matches the discussion).

    Given that we can't change the climate, we should probably give up cycling for the sake of our health and to reduce the burden on the NHS...

    Robert

    Posted 7 years ago #

  30. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Well that's damned good work Roibeard - better than my research had managed to pull together.

    I did find one thing that suggested that while people did get seriously injured cycling, the rates of gardening incidents were much higher.

    So possibly non-collision incidents make up the majority (even if, in the case of Finland, by a small margin), but collision incidents are more severe?

    Posted 7 years ago #

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