CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
I go through Garve quite regularly in a car (it is on the way to our Mountaineering Club hut) and have often thought I should take a photo of those signs. Never thought of streetview! The signs are newish I think; I don't remember when they went up but I'm pretty sure they haven't "always" been there.
Given that there's a whole bunch of level crossing stuff there, you might anticipate that there are rails to cross somewhere??
The problem is not that the rails are unexpected, it is that they are at an unexpectedly and unavoidably acute angle, much like Edinburgh tram lines. Combined with the typical human mindset of 'how bad can it be' (too much crying wolf with 'cyclists dismount' signs) and the deeper/wider profile of a heavy rail flangeway it really is an incredibly hazardous crossing
The challenge the council will face in dealing with junctions involving the tram is thinking about human nature and how people will react to whatever solution they come up with.
Quiet routes might direct some people away from these junctions, but human nature is to take the quickest route possible. A lot of people will continue to ride bikes through the junctions.
If the solution is just to put up some signs and stick some paint on the junction, people will still continue to do what they've done before - some may not see the paint in the midst of busy traffic; some will be out of position and it may be more dangerous for them to get to that painted lane than to stay where they are; others will ignore it because they ride in the traffic as its the fastest place to be and quite likely the safest for their style of riding. Besides, there's a chance that the paint is as badly positioned as the bike painted in between the tracks on Princes Street.
If the solution is to have a bit of segregated infra at the junction itself, then it won't solve the problem. Human nature means a number of folk will continue to do what they do now - if they are in the moving traffic and the lights green, they are not going to filter out of it into a holding pen to wait for a signal to cross the tramlines (see Haymarket). It may even be more dangerous or impossible for them to move out the that lane: if they are in the right hand lane on Lothian Road heading towards Princes St they would need to dodge buses.
The only solution I can see working is substantial amounts of segregated infrastructure on direct, arterial routes in the city centre. Then folk on bikes are then attracted by the offer of a fast and direct route into a safe place all the way to, through and beyond the junctions. They'll need to be future proofed to ensure there's enough capacity for induced demand (see London's superhighways). That might actually help the council hit some of its active travel targets too.
But you know all this...
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Police & hi-viz officials near to where Zhi Soh died. Could it be @EdinburghTrams looking into safety? Saw pointing at trams @CyclingEdin
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I agree changing the light timings as you go along Princes Street, to have a bike only green light, is a short term plaster to a much bigger problem which needs wholesale changes to fix.
But I think they really ought to be added to other junctions where you have to cross the tracks perpendicularly too. Going up Hannover Street from The Mound is a pain as the junction crosses at 45 degrees leading up to a pinch point at the far side of the junction, so you have to come out of the flow of traffic and back into it to cross safely. With similar issues coming out at Waverley Bridge and potentially other junctions too.
Unless I'm missing something, bike-only green light phases only really help if you arrive at the junction when the light is red and have time to filter to the front/ASZ. I'd hope for a solution that avoids that particular lottery.
However, if you combine it with some proper segregated infrastructure, that would work.
rbrtwtmn makes good points about the dangers of engaging in a technical discussion, it is easy to get shot down. But on the other hand, I suspect that there will be people from the council saying that, short of closing Princes Street for a year and spending 50m realigning the tram tracks, there's nothing that can be done. If we don't think this is true, if we think there are smaller interventions that can be done that will have a material effect on the safety of cycling along this route, I think we should suggest them.
Personally, if I were in the meeting and the minister said `I'm appalled by the tragedy, have 50 million to spend on making cycling safer in Edinburgh', I don't think I'd spend any of it on Princes street. I'd put in segregated cycle lanes on Lothian Road, Queensferry Road, Easter Road, Bruntsfield Place and Minto Street instead. And of course on the Roseburn-Leith route, which will maybe go some of the way to reducing problems at Haymarket.
There isn't room for a segregated route along Princes street unless you realign the tram tracks (I think I agree with edd1e_h that this is not going to happen), or make it only one way for buses, which I think is very interesting but has been rejected by all parties excepts the Greens at the council. Are there any shorter bits of segregation that we think would make a difference?
UtrechtCyclist - I would think big. Ask for a safe route from Lothian Road to Leith Walk to be built, via George Street, as a matter of urgency. The position of the tram tracks make a continuous segregated lane along Princes Street almost impossible - assuming buses and taxis remain two-way.
The Council has well-developed plans to do this - now would seem a good time to apply a bit of pressure to get it done far more quickly than planned. Who knows, the SG could be convinced to cough up a bit of cash to speed things along.
My concern about suggesting piecemeal new developments are that
1. They are rubbish, think Haymarket jug handle.
2. They will take ages to deliver anyway.
Although - in reality, I think the solution will end up being signs telling drivers not to run over cyclists.
If someone is going representing this forum, I'd suggest keeping it simple, and only represent this forum's wishes i.e. keep it to cycling.
I fully agree that the no 1 priority in the CC should be pedestrians, but if there is no one there *just* representing cyclists, the cyclist message could be lost or diluted.
Instead, I'd urge an invite for another group, to represent pedestrians and put their views forward separately. There is the added advantage that it is another "active travel" pressure group - the more the merrier!
Morningsider - I agree that Lothian Road to Leith Walk is very worthwhile and achievable. I don't know the exact details of the crash, and hadn't realised that sorting out this section might be something that could get pushed at this meeting. I know there were some in the council who wanted the Meadows to Castle Terrace plans to terminate at Charlotte Square, but in the end they decided that they'd rather get Meadows to Castle Terrace done quickly and postpone the second part to when other issues around E-W are being discussed. I'm not sure how many tramline crashes are related to Lothian Road - Charlotte Square, but it's certainly something very concrete that would improve conditions for cycling considerably.
As for Haymarket Jughandle being an example of something that is rubbish, I only half agree. It's clearly a very suboptimal solution bolted on to a substandard design. On the other hand, as someone who only goes that way every six months (and so has little confidence there) I use it every time. Spokes suggest that it has significantly cut tramline incidents at Haymarket (while also acknowledging that it is suboptimal).
"OUTSIDE HAYMARKET STATION
Initially this was the worst blackspot, with roughly as many crashes reported to Spokes here as in the remainder of the tram system combined. Perhaps for that reason, and also because remedial measures were relatively simple, the Council has acted. First, the taxi rank was quickly relocated since, despite police action, taxis were consistently parking illegally, forcing cyclists to dismount or hit the tramlines at very poor angle.
Whilst this helped greatly, crashes were still frequent. Our suggested long-term solution was not accepted, but could form a future extension to the east-west route. However, the Council next installed a very brightly coloured cycle lane, indicating the safest route under the existing layout.
Somewhat to our surprise, reports (to Spokes) of crashes here have fallen greatly, whilst they continue unchanged elsewhere. Many cyclists do not use the entire lane, but perhaps it concentrates attention onto the danger. However, the coloured lane is not a complete solution and – importantly – although it is quite effective in the particular circumstances of Haymarket, where you are on the left of all traffic, the same solution is unlikely to help at most other danger points, where separation is the clearest answer."
@Edinburgh Cycle Training,
yes we should primarily represent cyclists issues. But I don't think we dilute our message when we stress that building quality cycle infrastructure doesn't have to be in conflict with providing a good environment for pedestrians.
If we start proposing things that really make things bad for pedestrians, we create the false impression that cyclists and pedestrians are in conflict. This weakens our message (and strengthens the 'no bus-stop bypass let's ban cycling from the meadows' wing of Living Streets').
I think @Klaxon is on to a winner and you wouldn't necessarily have to re-aline the tram tracks to achieve it.
I suspect a delayed signal change for the Cars & Buses may not get accepted. Therefore you would need to deal with the issue of Car's and other Vehicles ignoring the red box a the lights.
I really do think you'd have to realign the tracks for a solution that doesn't compromise the pavement.
The tram line is forced to the left hand side in order to facilitate the entirely unnecessary pedestrian crossing island
You'd have to nibble a lot of the pavement to provide a safe route for bicycles while leaving bus clearance as well.
While directly outside Ghillie is very wide it pinches in a lot at The Rutland and The Rat Pack.
Delayed signals wouldn't even be a go-er as a stop gap without closing 1 vehicle lane (probably the centre one). They rely on being able to filter and wait at the front, which is not currently possible even by my rather bold filtering standards.
@StepRam, my experience of the cyclist's green and the motorist's green, at Bow Roundabout in London, was that in a clear number of cases, the motorists mistook* the cyclist's green for their own, despite the different heights of the signals and the carefully louvered aspect to the motorist.
As soon as this happens, the careful phasing of vehicles across the junction goes out of the window, and the cyclist is once again put in at least as much danger as the original junction provided, and sometimes more because the motorist sees the green and assumes the way is clear.
Since the average motorist is not a trained observer, the infrastructure has to cater for the lowest degree of capability.
* or wilfully jumped; I couldn't tell in each case.
I've Got a Collection of "Funny Looking Bikes" which if I get time I was going to make into a Youtube Video to highlight the issue of cars invading the Red box space. @Arellcat makes a good point, however, I wonder if that could be combined with a red light Camera!
A Radical solution would be to make that section of road one way. Diverting the other traffic down Cannon Lane and on to the Wester approach road.
@Arellcat
In my experience of advance green lights for cyclists, I can't remember seeing a car mistaking the light. Although the competence of motorists in Cambridge was far far above that which I've experienced in London.
The Oslo mayoralty (with a Lab-Green coalition worth noting) is doing exactly the right thing. And of course the car owner outrage seems to be universal (Frogner is Oslo's New Town, you really have no business going everywhere by car if you live there).
I think many of our roads are too wide for vehicles that are now meant to be at 20mph. At city centre danger points they should be at 10mph. I mean, really, people drive on Rose Street at 5mph. It's not unreasonable. There's loads of room at Shandwick Pl for all sorts of dedicated super bike lane, if they got the vehicular access down to the width a 10mph vehicle would need. Capacity would reduce a bit, and taxis and tour minibuses would reroute onto Queen Street, no bad thing.
I used to say I would love to see all of the Lights replaced with Zebra Crossings as that would slow the cars right down and completely change the priorities but after a few months of getting stopped at every set of lights going on the bike im not so sure about that anymore!
Clearly they didn't factor in cycling in the design, but now we have it I don't believe the track layout is what needs changed.
We used to have a tram system with many more tracks crossing each other at wierd angles (I'm thinking the 1950s).
There were many more cyclists and far fewer cars then - and I'm 100% sure that cyclists slipped on tracks and hit the deck then too. Occupational hazard, if you like.
But back then there was no car in your slipstream, or right beside you, so a fall was just a fall.
The solution now is segregated infra where possible the length of the tram track, along with clearly signed, signalled safe crossing points with advance greens for bikes elsewhere.
@Nelly - An older Edinburgher was reminiscing to me about how they would slip on tram tracks and break arms, but no-one thought anything of it. I'd guess it was as you say - there was less other traffic about.
slip on tram tracks and break arms, but no-one thought anything of it
These days, with zero hours contracts and a minimal and aggressive social security system a broken arm could see lots of people destitute. I don't think the same sanguine attitude is likely to prevail in the near future.
Did this meeting go ahead today?
Yep. The meeting happened yesterday - my thoughts are below. The others may have a different view...
My take from it was that it was a good meeting. He listened and clearly understood the problems of cycle safety. There was quite a lot of quoting (from both sides) from the Active Travel conference on Wednesday.
The conversation was broader that the specifics for solving tram tracks, although we did feed in ideas. He has a separate meeting with CEC coming up on that.
He (& his team) was offered and he seemed inclined to accept a cycling tour/training ride around Edinburgh in live traffic conditions.
There were some suggestions around how to improve the road design guidance and stakeholder engagement so that active travel is better implemented for big projects from the start (e.g. Edinburgh Trams, Sherriffhall etc)
Also some observations on how the funding structures could be tweaked away from year by year to multi year and specific pots for tackling dangerous junctions (instead of only new routes).
On funding there wasn't any promises for more money, but we did strongly make the point that it would make a big difference. Why should one area get to cycle safely via a CL+ scheme but not another area?
Interestingly, he did talk about making the difficult political decisions to get people out of their cars. That discussion went on to talk about the success at Gogarburn where taking away people's parking spaces on some days has led to an increase in cycling. He asked for more details.
He did stress that to overcome the obvious backlash from car users from any steps to curtail their dominance, it would be very helpful if the 'cycle lobby' were vocal in their support. We said we would...
So in summary, the optimist in me, says it was a worthwhile exercise. The realist says we should wait to see any visible changes from the minister and Transport Scotland.
Thanks, sounds as positive as it could be. The realist in you is onto something though.
Interesting that Sheriffhall came up, did he have anything to say on it?
Did the review of Cycling By Design come up at all? I keep getting it quoted at me by our roads guys as the reason to build rubbish
Noted
Those who build tram track noted that Edinburgh was the pits in terms of quality compared to contemporary work in Manchester and Blackpool plus and a VERY BIG plus is that the track slabs and road pavement are moving and cracking all the way from Haymarket to Waverley Bridge.
I have a strong hunch that the fatal crash at Shandwick Place was not caused by the tram rails but the sunken manhole at the same location, much as several other crashes have not been caused by the tram rails.
The Manchester tram builders had to test the stability of the ground before they started rebuilding the street, and the contract provided for the remedial works if the bearing strength of the subgrade was below a specified minimum. There us clear evidence that the supporting ground for the route between Haymarket and Waverley Bridge has lost the layer of compacted and stable ground - plus the old setts that were probably still under the tarmac and forming a load spreading layer with 200 years of slow & steady compaction and exposed the very weak gravel over fractured shale deposits as the NFS online borehole logs indicate - this with water in places, and historically Arellcat has noted that Scotland Street Tunnel also suffered the curse of running sand and unstable ground from this same geology of the George Street ridge - basically a raised beach.
Basically the whole construction of the on-street section should be revisited as the track slab is moving sufficiently to deliver cracks at the surface level - ultimately - a rebuild? and then it should go under Princes Street to create an all weather collonade wth access to the stores at basement level and to Princes Street Gardens as an all weather viewing platform for events in the Nor Loch valley.
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