CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Silverknowes Roundabout - Danger Alert

(126 posts)
  • Started 2 months ago by HankChief
  • Latest reply from HankChief

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  1. HankChief
    Member

    https://kevinlang.mycouncillor.org.uk/2017/09/06/silverknowes-roundabout/

    Painted cycle lane round the edge of Silverknowes Roundabout anyone...

    Angry tweet

    Posted 2 months ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    new cycling lanes on the roundabout to better protect cyclists and drivers

    OK.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  3. unhurt
    Member

    Hey now. It's important to protect drivers from feeling in any way responsible for driving so as not to flatten more vulnerable road users.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    It looks to me like there is room.......for best practice.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    Someone has been looking at the continent and failed to notice kerbs instead of paint.

    This sort of peripheral 'lane' was once on the roundabout at the bottom of Broughton Street.

    No longer.

    I thought CEC had learned it wasn't a good idea.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  6. unhurt
    Member

    Kerbs and cyclists having right of way at all the exits!

    Posted 2 months ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    "

    The works were consulted on and approved before we were elected.

    "

    Really??

    Posted 2 months ago #
  8. sallyhinch
    Member

    From that post - it's a little worrying that the council can decide to resurface and make changes to a roundabout like that without councillors (or indeed the public) being aware. If there had been any form of consultation they would have been told about the danger of bike lanes like that, and it might even have been an opportunity to consider continental geometry if not a full-blown Dutch roundabout (which is still quite hard to implement using UK road practices)

    Good post here on what makes a Dutch roundabout work so well in great detail by a UK highway engineer http://therantyhighwayman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/ive-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt.html

    Posted 2 months ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Was going to post this yesterday but couldn't find right thread!

    https://twitter.com/rep_of_design/status/901913238723584000

    Posted 2 months ago #
  10. nevelbell
    Member

    This is insane! How the hell do you turn right safely?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  11. sallyhinch
    Member

    This is also contrary to the existing Cycling By Design guidance (https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/14173/cycling_by_design_2010__rev_1__june_2011_.pdf - pp 96-7)

    Actually I was surprised how not-bad the CbD guidance on roundabouts was, considering it was written in 2010. Yet to see a roundabout that actually conforms to their design for a compact roundabout

    Posted 2 months ago #
  12. acsimpson
    Member

    Ignoring the stupid cycle lanes for a minute (I hope they aren't going to claim that comes from the 10%)

    a new traffic island on Lauriston Farm Road to assist with pedestrian crossings

    If that is their aim why don't they include zebra crossings just like the ones on Silverknowes parkway? In fact why aren't they on all 4 roads.

    Given the new crossings should there not have been a TRO for this? They seem to use that as an excuse as to why they can't put them in elsewhere.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  13. Iain McR
    Member

    Having look at the diagram and the website, are we absolutely sure this isn't a satirical / alt news page ?

    It's crazy/unnerving/flabbergasting/etc that anyone with the authority to make these sort of changes doesn't realise this is unacceptable.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  14. weezee
    Member

    Thanks @sallyhinch, now I've got sucked into reading Cycling By Design. There goes my evening...

    Posted 2 months ago #
  15. sallyhinch
    Member

    even better, it's being reviewed, so if there's anything you think should be changed in it, now's your chance ...

    Posted 2 months ago #
  16. Morningsider
    Member

    acsimpson - you don't need a TRO for a pedestrian crossing. Section 23 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 allows a local authority to install one, as long as they consult with the police and give public notice of the proposal before installing it. TROs are for all the other stuff, parking and loading bays, yellow lines etc.

    As the cycle lanes in this scheme are advisory, there is no need for a TRO for those either.

    I would guess that this is the result of a council officer who wanted money to make changes to the roundabout and, seeing the pile of cash available for cycling schemes, shoved in the cycle element to get their hands on the dosh. I could be wrong, of course.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  17. Frenchy
    Member

    How the hell do you turn right safely?

    Not sure about safely, but you are supposed to go all three way round the outside of the roundabout. The Highway Code says somewhere that cyclists can do this at any roundabout.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  18. ih
    Member

    @Morningsider You allude to something that I've suspected, namely that a bit of cycle stuff is thrown in, no matter how rubbish, so that the cycling funding can be raided in order to do other stuff. Do you think that happens? And if so, how can the transport budget be interrogated by the public to try to make sure that all cycling spend goes on cycle facilities?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  19. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    Beyond belief. I've emailed my councillors and fired off a tweet to David Key.

    What's going on with these non-existant consultations? The world's biggest no-brainer in D Mains park gets the usual time wasting treatment, yet this [expletive redacted] gets waved through without a proper consulation. Actually really quite miffed.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  20. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    This is mad, a very bad idea.

    Incidentally, it is probably what the Dutch would do in a place where there isn't space for a proper segregated roundabout (proper segregated roundabouts take a lot of space). I know a few roundabouts like this in Utrecht, e.g. just west of Willhelminapark .

    But it helps that you have several thousand cyclists going through this roundabout every day and drivers who are trained to understand it. Don't think it's at all wise to put these things in Edinburgh.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  21. Stickman
    Member

    Both Lesley McInnes and David Key raising this urgently tomorrow.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  22. Tulyar
    Member

    For a zebra crossing and a light controlled crossing you need TRO's to make the law on zig zag markings and stop lines enforcible.

    'Elephant's feet markings do not require a TRO though

    Posted 2 months ago #
  23. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Is anyone actively in favour of advisory cycle lanes? I'd be happy to see them all removed as I can't think of one that improves the street it's on.

    We could stop this kind of nonsense if we persuaded the council to stop laying advisory cycle lanes altogether. If we could demonstrate that there is no demand for them surely we could stop them being laid. Why would the state spend money on something nobody wants? Austerity and all that.

    Unless of course the demand is from motorists?

    Posted 2 months ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "Is anyone actively in favour of advisory cycle lanes?"

    Most people (bike riders and car users) don't know what they are.

    I assume the one on Market Street is advisory, but it works.

    Obviously the crucial thing here was the removal of parking, but without the lane vehicles would be closer to the kerb making filtering difficult or impossible.

    There are plenty of similar places.

    There are too many lanes where parking is allowed or not allowed but parked on anyway, without fear of enforcement.

    There are too many that have faded to invisibility.

    Etc.

    The main thing about the Silverknowes roundabout ones is that they would encourage ignorant drivers to believe that bikes should only be in the peripheral lanes.

    The real tragedy is that CEC thinks that keeping this roundabout is a good idea.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  25. Frenchy
    Member

    Is anyone actively in favour of advisory cycle lanes?

    To partially play de'il's advocate, I think they have a few important roles:

    Making a route more attractive to less confident cyclists. This might well be false confidence, but increasing the number of people cycling is an important step in improving safety. I find it plausible that advisory cycle lanes are an overall improvement to safety in that regard. If I'm cycling in a strange city, I will choose the streets which have cycle lanes.

    They increase the prominence of cycling. Simply having people who are crossing the road or driving around town see cycling infrastructure (even if it is crap) reiterates that cycling is an option, and that there are cyclists around that they should be looking for.

    Pragmatically, they are probably a necessary intermediate step between no infrastructure and great infrastructure.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  26. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Making a route more attractive to less confident cyclists.

    My test case is Madame IWRATS. She has a bicycle and is totally nails but won't ride for transport.

    Is this part of the process of persuading her that it is safe? I don't think so.

    I suspect that it would be very hard to find a single person who had decided to start cycling because of pink paint or, even less likely, chuckies.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  27. gembo
    Member

    Chuckies last a bit longer than paint. Both show that we a re visible just, however, councils laying them down need to know they only just begun. We need to be sharing horizons that are not new to us but are new to them. We will never get to be on top of the world looking down on creation but everybody got ta start somewhere (this last cliche is not a capenter's lyric)

    Posted 2 months ago #
  28. nedd1e_h
    Member

    I can see that David Key's time & energy is going to get soaked up on the tonnes of low-level nonsense and stupidity like this and the Leith St fiasco.

    (I'm not saying this shouldn't be stopped - it needs to)

    He won't have anything left to create awesome cycleways and pedestrian space along the arterial routes which would really transform Edinburgh.

    Posted 2 months ago #
  29. gembo
    Member

    @ned

    You have nailed it

    As with us developing our own plan and ignoring the aforesaid clunge

    This is

    What is to be done, as VI Lennon said

    I Am The Walrus

    Posted 2 months ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    "I can see that David Key's time & energy is going to get soaked up on the tonnes of low-level nonsense and stupidity like this and the Leith St fiasco."

    Yes, but.

    It's very unfortunate he has to do any of this, but he also needs to know these happen and in his new role find out why, and deal with the culture that makes them happen/possible.

    And change that culture/ignorance.

    Easier said than done of course.

    Posted 2 months ago #

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