CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

The Sustrans proposals for Picardy Place/Leith Street

(868 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from crowriver

  1. wingpig
    Member

    "3) How to plan space around obstructions like ATMs or tables"

    I can't remember which consultation it was at, but I once asked why things like pedestrian crossing button-posts were placed in such stupid obstructive positions, particularly near crossings already constrained with PGR (set back at least fifty centimetres from the kerb edge to protect it from cars important motor cars from having their paint damaged) and there seems to be no consideration of how multiple poles/bus stops/shop openings/trees/bins/pedestrians with no sense of when they're standing in such a way as to block the narrow gap remaining for people using the footway for ambulation will interact once they're all installed. Can't remember what the answer was now, if I got one. At one of the Leith Walk things I tried to explain that the pedestrian throughput per unit time of a non-staggered junction would be greater than that of a two-part staggered one as there would be less impediment from having to turn through two right-angles in a confined space with people coming the other way and that it was therefore worth making all crossings unstaggered and having a universal pedestrian green on every junction, but I might have spoiled it by saying that cars would easily make up the couple of extra seconds they would be 'delayed' by simply accelerating slightly more aggressively and braking slightly more sharply on the next few segments of their journey, whereas pedestrians delayed by three or four minutes waiting for a crossing won't be able to make the time up, except by risking their lives.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. neddie
    Member

    Also that pedestrians and cyclists don't suffer from congestion the way motor traffic does so there's no point

    The point is at least to work out how many would switch from driving to cycling given the right conditions and subtracting those motor journeys from the model, no?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. Klaxon
    Member

    The answer was rather dismissive - That's just the Y junction shifted a little bit along to the road.

    Even if you light-phase them to function as a crossroads (as at the top of Leith St and Church Hill) two T junctions is a lot different from a crossroads

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

  5. chdot
    Admin

    MORE pedestrianised streets and fewer bus and car routes could soon be coming to Scotland's largest city following the launch of a think-tank charged with making Glasgow a more "breathable" space.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15683049.Pavements_and_pedal_power_could_replace_buses_in_Glasgow_city_centre/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    Poor Gordon Mckenzie, the former transport convener, looked petrified when interviewed about the chaos and no current councillor has any more expertise than their predecessors 10 years ago and, of course, that includes me. Nor is it fair to expect local politicians to have the knowledge to delve independently into schemes of such technical complexity. We have been told history won’t repeat itself, that everything will be under control. Maybe it will be, but every councillor should read Renilson’s evidence and ask themselves “How will I know?”

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/john-mclellan-edinburgh-s-tram-scandal-could-happen-again-1-4620334

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. sallyhinch
    Member

    @nedd1e_h - my understanding is that the traffic models aren't allowed to make assumptions about mode shift, even when explicitly building a cycling scheme intended to bring about mode shift. Similarly, they don't build in any induced demand either.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. Klaxon
    Member

    That explains why

    1) Lane reduction schemes always fail modelling, as you're trying to put the same number of vehicles into a smaller space

    2) Lane increases always pass modelling, as you're putting the same number of vehicles in a larger space

    This sort of model is suitable to examine the impact of short term roadworks but not the long term impact of permanent works.

    What an intellectually honest modeller would do is produce a spread of models,

    A baseline model to indicate impact on day 1 of opening (may indicate staging is necessary)

    Further models showing traffic reductions of 10, 20, 30, 40%.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. neddie
    Member

    Does anyone know the names of the officials present at the consultation?

    Ewan Kennedy from CEC, head of roads (?) was heading up the main display / map. Then who was the guy at the traffic model video? Contractor I think.

    And there was a guy from TH Real Estate - what was his name / position?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Phil Noble (tall CEC guy) was at Bellevue.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    “Of course I am keen for them to return to the area outside the cathedral once the works are complete and am pleased to hear that, rather than going into storage, they will remain on public display in the interim.”

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/health/treasured-artworks-to-be-moved-from-picardy-place-1-4622809

    Presumably if some variation of the Sustrans plan was implemented then nothing would need to be moved(?)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    The report claimed:

    Every £1 invested in local bus services generates up to £8 in wider social, economic and environmental benefits;

    Car ownership and use continues to rise and has reduced bus journeys by almost 15 million in the past four years;

    An increase in online shopping means fewer people are travelling to high streets and shopping centres. This trend has cut bus journeys by seven million over the same period;
    Congestion has increased average bus journey times by 10% over the last decade, leading to higher fares and undermining the attractiveness of the bus;

    There has been significantly higher investment in other transport modes which are used by less people. For example, Scottish Government support for rail per passenger trip is roughly 10 times that for each bus passenger; and

    Stronger partnerships between operators and transport authorities and investment in bus priority measures will help bus operators deliver a convenient, dependable and affordable network of services.

    https://cbwmagazine.com/kpmg-releases-report-scottish-bus-decline/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. LaidBack
    Member

    So one answer is to make Leith St all bus priority thus improving air qualty and reliability. Segregated bike way runs up here onto North Bridge. Result is improvement in bus journey times and greater take up of cycling and nicer walking.
    Junctions at Picardy Place easier to manage and land use more attractive.
    Reduce car parking space at new centre to encourage modal shift and keep York Place clear. Not sure what vehicles will expect access off of Leith St though?

    For a city proud of its bus use Edinburgh seems strangely reluctant to give buses dedicated space away from Princes St. Think new centre expects larger car park to be full even if it causes gridlock? Spaces should now be revised downwards to match the trend of new generation driving less and the rise of driverless cars which will need drop off points only.
    Freed up car parking space can be used for something productive?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. Frenchy
    Member

    Freed up car parking space can be used for something productive?

    Apparently two floors of the car park are being built in such a way that it will be easy to "retrofit" them into shop space.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    “Apparently two floors of the car park are being built in such a way that it will be easy to "retrofit" them into shop space.”

    I heard that too.

    PROBLEM IS

    Fewer people are actually going shopping - see all the ‘news’ about BlackFriday (people buying online so no instore fights).

    SO

    Maybe have some nice outdoor space to attract people who could then be tempted to try the delights of the new St James(?)...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    If the gyratory goes ahead, I for one will boycott the new St James until the gyratory is got rid of, or until I shuffle off this mortal coil, whichever happens first.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    @nedd1e_h - my understanding is that the traffic models aren't allowed to make assumptions about mode shift, even when explicitly building a cycling scheme intended to bring about mode shift. Similarly, they don't build in any induced demand either.

    This was the thing that I had my Tom Hanks BIG 'I don't get it' moment at the stakeholders consultation on Monday. "Well, we can't possibly plan for reduced traffic at the junction..."
    Sorry, I don't understand: tram, bike share, policies on modal shift, segregated bike lanes etc. I DON'T UNDERSTAND!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. Stickman
    Member

    http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/news/picardy-place-gyratory-–-opponents-meet-evening

    "Activists, stakeholders and concerned locals opposed to the City of Edinburgh Council’s latest plans for Picardy Place will meet this evening.

    The Picardy Place Coalition Campaign will start its first meeting at 6.30pm, upstairs in the Outhouse on Broughton Street Lane. All are welcome.

    The idea is to establish priorities and discuss the best way to promote practical alternatives to the current proposal on offer in advance of the Transport and Environment Committee meeting on 15 January."

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. Frenchy
    Member

    I'm struggling to keep up with developments and hearsay on all of this so this may well already be widely known, but I got a response to questions about the GAM from Derek Mackay via one of my MSPs today, which stated:

    "no discussions have been held about the detail of the proposals to redevelop Picardy Place, for which the City of Edinburgh Council is responsible"

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    "no discussions have been held about the detail of the proposals to redevelop Picardy Place, for which the City of Edinburgh Council is responsible"

    Well that’s a pretty poor non-reply.

    Can’t be strictly true!

    Presume it means ‘with ministers or people reporting directly to them’(?)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    If it’s also true that no MSPs have had any conversations with any ministers about Picardy Place, then that’s pretty bad.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. Frenchy
    Member

    Presume it means ‘with ministers or people reporting directly to them’(?)

    Yes, my fault for not providing context. He's meaning no discussions took place at the Growth Accelerator Executive Group (members from the Council, Government and Scottish Futures Trust)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    Ta,

    So, either CEC are making it up, or discussion weren’t ‘formal’.

    Not sure which would be worse.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. Frenchy
    Member

    I presume SG have are saying something like "we don't care about the design, as long as it funnels enough people into the new shopping centre to make sure we get our money back!" - CEC (and the developers) are hoping to do that with cars.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. ih
    Member

    @Stickman

    PLEASE NOTE anyone who was going to the Picardy planning meeting at 6.30 tonight.

    I see the Spurtle has changed the meeting to 'closed' after mistakenly saying it was 'open', and not to go without an invitation. I have emailed for an invite, but I'm not expecting one.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    “I have emailed for an invite, but I'm not expecting one.”

    Worth going along with that info (if it’s not too far away).

    Presumably some people will not have seen the status change and also turn up.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. unhurt
    Member

    Oh - I was going to show up too!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    Oh - I was going to show up too!

    Might be entertaining...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. Klaxon
    Member

    I doubt there would be any harm in anyone attending who wants to become involved in an active campaign

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. chdot
    Admin

    They also said the Meadows-GeoSt project may not have the bulk of its implementation starting till 2020 because, first it will need Orders (once a final option is decided) and second it will form part of the City Centre Transformation and design options must tie in with that.

    http://www.spokes.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/171129-ATF-DdF-report.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #

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