CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

The Sustrans proposals for Picardy Place/Leith Street

(868 posts)
  • Started 7 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from crowriver

  1. Morningsider
    Member

    My stab at an objection:

    Thank you for your email highlighting changes to the proposed new design of Picardy Place. I know many people will have already criticised aspects of the proposed design. However, my concern focuses on the assertion that the proposal “…gives a balanced solution to the many competing demands from residents, businesses and stakeholders”. The design is focused on maximising the flow of cars through the junction, which is neither balanced, nor meets the needs of residents, business or other stakeholders, as explained below:

    Residents: Residents want clean air, low noise, safe roads and easy access to work, schools and services. It is difficult to see how the allocation of road space meets these needs when 2011 census data states for the Leith Walk ward shows:

    • 53.7% of households have no access to a car or van
    • 32.5% residents travel to work by bus, 30.7% walk, 28% drive or are a car passenger and 4.6% cycle

    Clearly, residents needs would be better served by a design that reduced road space for private cars, included bus priority measures and created safer and more direct pedestrian routes.

    Business: It is also difficult to see how the proposed layout meets the needs of business. The Transport Assessment produced by the St James developers (see planning application 08/03361/OUT) gives the following breakdown of how people travel to the centre:

    • 65% bus, 12% walk, 11% car, 8% train, 4% other modes

    The developer also gives a commitment to maintain or improve the mode share of active and sustainable travel for the new development. It would seem reasonable to assume a similar breakdown for surrounding businesses. Again, the needs of business would be better served by reducing road space for private cars, creating bus priority measures and clear pedestrian routes.

    Stakeholders: Other stakeholders include tourists and those passing through the area. Tourists will generally be exploring this central area on foot and will be looking for clear routes and a safe, high quality environment commensurate with the gateway to a World Heritage Site. A gyratory is effectively the opposite of this. Tourists would benefit from a reduction in road space and the creation of clear, high quality pedestrian routes.

    Lothian Buses officials have indicated that 100,000 passengers travel through Picardy Place every day. However, the design includes no bus priority measures. Clearly, bus priority measures should be, well, a priority for this location.

    Finally, those travelling through the area by car. This appears to be the only group not being asked to compromise – road space is increased and traffic flow maximised. This is not a balanced approach – as private car trips account for a small proportion of the people moving through the area.

    I would urge you to reconsider the proposed design. Below I have attached “before” and “after” images of the Stockwell gyratory in London, which was recently removed by Transport for London (TfL). The “before” image gives an indication of what will be created at Picardy Place – no matter how high quality the public realm, can you imagine anyone lingering there? The “after” image shows what Picardy Place could look like. TfL has spent millions removing this mistake from the past, please don’t spend millions installing one.

    Can't copy the images, but you can find them here: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/stockwell-gyratory-future-proofing-network-publication-final.pdf

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    TfL has spent millions removing this mistake from the past, please don’t spend millions installing one.

    Surgical.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. acsimpson
    Member

    Has anyone mentioned yet how of all the locations in all the cities in the UK the BBC chose Picardy Place as the location to option it's recent programme on polution: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09m2djj/fighting-for-air?suggid=b09m2djj

    It's so bad that they donned a chemical warfare suit to illustrate just how toxic it is at the moment. It may be a good idea to encourage our transport committee to watch at least the opening few minutes of it before becoming Christmas voting turkeys.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. wingpig
    Member

    Physical-demonstration-wise, could we get large printouts of the gyratory plan, cut out the middle triangle, mount them on card and wear them like millstones, outside the chambers or trudging round the roundabout?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. i
    Member

    I started doodling on the proposals as I was thinking of what to say to my councillor and got carried away. It certainly prioritises public transport. Shame I didn't draw it a few months ago.
    Green area is Bus/tram street.
    Some sort of Pavilion in the middle

    Imgur picture Link

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. i
    Member

    Having no bus/tram street on the omni side makes it quite similar to the Sustrans original idea.

    Picture link

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    @i

    Good ideas.

    Would cars access the St James car park from Regents Rd/top of Leith St.? I think practically you would have to consider that.

    Or, thinking outside the box, the car park entrance could be built on the York Pl side

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. Frenchy
    Member

    What do you use to make these images?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. HankChief
    Member

    Just wow!

    Someone has done the stats on the consultation responses.

    Of the 545 constituents who replied.

    19 supported a Gyratory
    240 indifferent &
    286 opposed

    raw data

    tweet

    Good work

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @HankChief

    That needs to get into a Scotsman/Evening News article. Anyone know how you get text into those rags?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. unhurt
    Member

    ...write most of it for them?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Well aye. But to whom might one address one's telegram?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. gembo
    Member

    EEN loves a council bashing opinion piece?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. Frenchy
    Member

    Well aye. But to whom might one address one's telegram?

    I have tweeted them, but for this to be successful one of their journalists would have to write the article, so...

    Could try some of these: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/contact-us

    Possibly Alastair Grant?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. HankChief
    Member

    Keep up. Alastair Grant left over a year ago, even his replacement Florence has come & gone in that time.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. Frenchy
    Member

    Has she? She still had articles in the paper a few days ago.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. HankChief
    Member

    My mistake. I got it the wrong way round. It's Alistair that has moved on again. This time from the Post to the Herald.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

  19. i
    Member

    @Frenchy I use GIMP.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. glasgow megasnake
    Member

    To me a story that goes:

    - council/government/private enterprise agree substantial changes to centre of Edinburgh behind closed doors with no consultation of public.

    - public finally are consulted and majority of responses not in favour of the fundamental concept

    - council in process of deciding to build it anyway because there is a secret contract that means there are secret penalties if it's not built, even though the people of the city it's in hate it.

    Is a pretty major news story. It should be in national newspapers, really.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    there is a secret contract that means there are secret penalties if it's not built

    Has this been established? All I'm aware of is people suggesting that it's the only remaining explanation for the dogged persistence of the gyrators.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. glasgow megasnake
    Member

    Appendix 5 to the summary papers prepared for the council committees (but, interestingly, not the main report) mention that the gyratory layout was objected to. There is a council response to that objection which is:

    "The layout for Picardy Place was approved by City of Edinburgh Council in March 2016, as part of the GAM agreement with Scottish Government and St James Edinburgh.

    Any change to the proposed layout would lead to the Council being in breach of the contractual arrangements in place and, as such, would put at risk the financial investment agreed with the Scottish Government and St James Edinburgh.

    The engagement undertaken since September 2017 has been in respect of the detailed design proposed."

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. unhurt
    Member

    Essentially that suggests there was never an opportunity for the wider public to influence the design fundamentals - just the tickling round the edges. Which is a systemic issue. Which makes me inclined to disagree with Spokes here insofar as yes, probably we can't stop the approval but it becomes far more important to make enough noise that we reduce the chances of this sort of thing happening again (and again, and again). (Also, you never know what you might manage to do if you try...!)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    “Is a pretty major news story. It should be in national newspapers, really.”

    Yes.

    Ian Swanson did some good pieces in ENews last year.

    Time for another one.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    The layout for Picardy Place was approved by City of Edinburgh Council in March 2016, as part of the GAM agreement with Scottish Government and St James Edinburgh.

    This may be true, but;

    1) We know by Derek MacKay's letter that the SG are design-agnostic and
    2) They do not say that the gyratory is a necessary part of the agreement

    Until someone states overtly that failure to build a gyratory triggers penalty clauses I see nothing but misdirection here.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. glasgow megasnake
    Member

    It may be though that it doesn't matter what was agreed, just that what was agreed gets built.

    Or it could be that the developers specified/agreed some level of traffic flow rate past their development/car park, and the gyratory is the only way to meet it?

    As you say, who knows...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    “Any change to the proposed layout would lead to the Council being in breach of the contractual arrangements in place and, as such, would put at risk the financial investment agreed with the Scottish Government and St James Edinburgh.“

    Well, that’s the story that’s being spun by CEC.

    I think it’s likely that there is a clause saying CEC has to compensate the developers if things don’t happen according to planned timescale.

    SG/SFT withdrawing money is much less likely.

    But the many and various issues here include -

    Details of various ‘secret’ deals.

    The desirability of such deals to be made without adequate scrutiny by councillors.

    The complete inadequance of opportunities for public scrutiny.

    The sham of the (too late) “consultation” process.

    The disingenuous reporting of objections in the latest CEC reports to committee.

    The (apparent) unwillingness of councillors to demand more scrutiny of this whole thing.

    ‘Relying’ on Green amendments to make things slightly better should shame any councillor who cares about Edinburgh more than just ‘the financial implications’.

    It’s disappointing (but understandably) that the developers haven’t come up with ideas that would be an improvement.

    Real shame that Humza Yousaf is (apparently) not interested in all this. I presume he would be if it was in Glasgow (?)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. Frenchy
    Member

    @IWRATS - Yesterday I looked again at the letter I got from Derek Mackay. I think I misinterpreted what he was saying.

    I'll post the whole thing in a bit, but he says:

    CEC "identified three categories of enabling infrastructure at the St James Quarter that would provide the necessary impetus to take the St James Quarter Growth Accelerator agreement forward:

    • public realm improvements in Leith Street, Little King Street and Picardy Place
    • major highway improvements and traffic management proposals at the junction of Leith Street, York Place and Leith Walk, and the creation of a public transport interchange; and
    • a new sustainable energy centre for the development and surrounding area.
    "

    and then later

    "no discussions have been held about the detail of the proposals to redevelop Picardy Place, for which the City of Edinburgh Council is responsible"

    I now wonder if the two statements I bolded are code for "we've agreed that it will be a gyratory, but we'll leave CEC to arrange the deckchairs around the edges."

    EDIT: Full letter (hopefully): https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aI88c2kJ7eqS9GfOiBVpnNUkRIOyFofW

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    “Or it could be that the developers specified/agreed some level of traffic flow rate past their development/car park, and the gyratory is the only way to meet it?”

    That Is very unlikely, but part of the problem is CEC officials’ inability to get past the outdated concepts related to ‘traffic flow.

    Worse that councillors just go along with the ‘(motor) traffic is inevitable and must be facilitated’ agenda.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. wingpig
    Member

    “Or it could be that the developers specified/agreed some level of traffic flow rate past their development/car park, and the gyratory is the only way to meet it?”

    "That Is very unlikely, but part of the problem is CEC officials’ inability to get past the outdated concepts related to ‘traffic flow."

    Rather than specific flow rates might there have been an unwise agreement that the car park of the shopping centre/hotel would be accessible from all directions? Do modern hotel operators do stuff like compare their proposed locations' results to their competitors in terms of nearness-to-popular-tourist-arrival-points, which would be affected very very slightly if vehicles had to travel round a one-way system, particularly if there's an assumption that arriving tourists would use taxis and would therefore be subject to one-way routings?

    Posted 6 years ago #

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