What an utter mess.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
The Sustrans proposals for Picardy Place/Leith Street
(868 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
-
Look at the cycle lane that crosses the tram tracks on the bend (top right). insane.
Posted 6 years ago # -
If left and straight on are phased together then cyclists can just keep left. If it’s a left turn filter, as I suspect it might be due to tram phases, then it’s a deathtrap
Posted 6 years ago # -
How is the non-suicidal cyclist expected to navigate the desire-route of Broughton Street to Leith Street?
Posted 6 years ago # -
One can only conclude that one or more of the people responsible for this thing (I'm not going to dignify it by calling it a design) is a verified psychopath with a desire to cause physical harm to other human beings.
How else can you explain the production of this thing in the face of all the feedback and evidence that has been presented?
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ih I think there's a route to and from the island to Broughton Street. At least the press release text speaks of cyclists turning right into Broughton Street from the island.
Without seeing it in the
fleshconcrete, starting from Broughton Street on the right hand lane, going straight on to the island might also work, phasing permitting.Robert
Posted 6 years ago # -
There must be some serious levels of cognitive dissonance going on in CEC. How does this proposal meet their own stated design guidance of
"give priority to sustainable travel (walking, cycling and public transport)"
Truly baffling.
Posted 6 years ago # -
The story still appears to be that the gyratory is inevitable. No human agency can prevent the human beings operating the machinery from building it.
The claim is, I think, that this is the best that can be done within that preternatural constraint.
I don't believe either aspect of the story.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Roibeard: I don't mean to imply that Broughton St to Leith St is the only problem - it's all crap - but there is no way from Broughton to the island. You would have to dismount and use crossings, or ride against the flow of traffic (also having to cross tram tracks and lanes of motors turning left), or ride round the gyratory (also having to cross tracks while changing direction, and lanes of motors that are continuing to Leith Walk).
Posted 6 years ago # -
I'm not certain that proceeding to the island would be against the flow of traffic. When Broughton Street gets their green phase, the innermost lane on the gyratory will be stationary, and potentially the middle "straight on to Broughton Street" lane might also be stationary (to let cyclists make the right turn off the island). At this point, cyclists could proceed to the island (from the outer lane) without crossing another stream and crossing perpendicular to the tramlines. Granted the phasing would need to be just right (and respected!) to prevent them from conflicting with the innermost gyratory lane.
Of course, this is all conjecture, as there are no clear markings for this route.
I suspect we're vociferously agreeing that it's <understatement> a bit substandard </understatement>.
Robert
Posted 6 years ago # -
Lotaspace
Posted 6 years ago # -
One can only hope in the future that they:
- Close the top of Leith St to private motors.
- Restore the junction to a simple crossroads, by closing the arm of the gyratory opposite the Omni to all but buses performing U-turns, leaving only one infrequently-used lane there.
- Making a decent public space out of it, connected to the Omni as above.
Posted 6 years ago # -
It's not so much a tragedy of the commons (though there is "common good" land at the heart of it) but rather a tragedy of contractual obligation and inept negotiation of said contracts. Thus leaving the nominal planning and transport authority beholden to the private developers, who presumably have got exactly what they wanted without having to pay for it as the nominal planning and transport authority have borrowed from central government to pay for these "enabling works".
What are the 60 million quids of our taxes enabling? The funnelling of single and/or multi-occupancy motor vehicles into the private developer's underground multi-storey car park. And the funnelling of local and non-local single and/or multi-occupancy motor vehicles onto Queen Street, London Road, North Bridge and Leith Walk, the better to make their clearly highly essential journeys without "unacceptable queueing" (to use the Council's own traffic modelling shibboleth).
Posted 6 years ago # -
Not sure if this link is on here or not;
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/picardyplace
I count myself as a robust cyclist but I'm not sure I'll be willing to ride from Broughton Street to Leith Street once this has been built.
It's sometimes frightening at present, but the introduction of advisory lanes and tram tracks will possibly raise the risk above my threshold, especially in the dark.
Imagine. You're on the steep uphill at the top of Broughton Street. The ASZ's effect is nullified by gravity and you immediately have traffic on your tail. You make the turn and try to cross into lane two as you do it. Traffic for Leith is trying to overtake. In the 'Old Town' ASZ if you bear left for the advisory lane you'll be in the gravel and bits of car. If you bear right you hit the tram tracks at an acute angle.
Looks really vile. Presumably this thing will have traffic lights?
Posted 6 years ago # -
"without "unacceptable queueing" (to use the Council's own traffic modelling shibboleth)."
Can we coin a new one? Maybe designs that avoid "unacceptable killing"?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Looks really vile. Presumably this thing will have traffic lights?
I don't think even the maddest of "traffic flow" proponents would put ASZs on the gyratory itself if it weren't signalised.
I haven't figured out for sure, but it's possible that Broughton Street -> Leith Street will be possible by turning left onto the wee cycle lane at the west end of Picardy Place, then using the pedestrian (toucan?) crossing to get to the island.
Posted 6 years ago # -
The Gyratory is a safe place to cycle. Look! Advanced stop zones and advisory cycle lanes. And an odd sideways bicycle box.
The Gyratory is not a safe place to cycle. Look! Segregated bicycle lanes. And bits of pavement. And a toucan crossing. And a tram platform. Maybe.
Posted 6 years ago # -
IWRATS - yes, it's basically one of those magic eye pictures. A cyclist looks at it and sees a deadly mess. A non-cyclist looks at it and sees lots of cycle infrastructure.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Morningsider
Nice. And what does a transport convener or minister see? A triumph of triangulation where hotelier, shopkeeper, motorist, bus driver, bus passenger, members of the taxi community, pedestrians and bicyclists can happily rub shoulders in pursuit of the economic growths they all so ardently desire.
Posted 6 years ago # -
For the Broughton Street -> Leith Street crossing, my top tip would be to:
- Carry straight on out of Broughton St (in the right lane if necessary)
- Head against the flow of traffic coming down what was Cathedral Lane. (Don't worry it will be stationary at the lights, nobody will run the lights on amber/red and none of it will be blocking the boxed junction, will it?)
- Pass to the right of the small island, enabling an almost 90 degree crossing of the tram tracks.
- Turn left on to the cycle way in the middle of the tiger crossing.
Job's a good-un. What could go wrong?
Posted 6 years ago # -
That is actually a sensible route if you're happy to take the right hand lane
It could even have been formally signposted as the recommended route if Broughton St had been kept as 1 lane.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@naddie
I like the cut of your jib Sir. I am going to GoPro that route the minute it's built. If @Roibeard will lend me his GoPro...
Posted 6 years ago # -
For me, the most depressing aspect of the design (and I am very depressed about the Picardy/Leith Walk/Street fiasco) is its utter inflexibility largely due to the fixed configuration of the tram tracks on Picardy Place. It is impossible to imagine that a future more enlightened planner would be able to modify the design later (as we were told was possible) to close off the road in front of the cathedral, my preferred design, or the road by the Omni. The tram tracks will just not allow 2-way traffic on Picardy Place itself, so we are stuck with this for as long as the tram exists.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@ih
Or westbound traffic on York Place could simply be removed? Traffic free zone from Queen Street to the Meadows?
Posted 6 years ago # -
"Or westbound traffic on York Place could simply be removed?"
Yes, but realistically, it's highly unlikely as westbound traffic doesn't have anywhere else to go. A more people friendly PP, Leith Walk and Leith Street might have persuaded folk that they weren't as dependent on their car as they thought. These designs just reinforce that dependency.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Actually, it should be possible to block all cross-town private motor traffic, be that westbound, eastbound, southbound or northbound.
That's what they do in civilised continental European cities.
Posted 6 years ago # -
The gyratory will simply feed to perpetuate the existence of the Edinburgh central core route which provides a nearly continuous two lanes each way from Tollcross and Dundee St to Willowbrae Road, via Lothian Rd and Queen St. It's the ghost of the urban motorway we never got.
One of the biggest things the City Centre Transformation can do is come up with a short term and medium binding masterplan to break up all the roads along this route into local community spaces. Then, a gyratory will look absurd, rather than necessary.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Are people really demanding that bikes be banned from cross-town routes? Or have we suddenly become not traffic? Likewise buses etc?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Private motor traffic.
FFS.
You know what I mean
Posted 6 years ago # -
To be honest, I'd rather have most private motor vehicles to share roadspace with than either taxis or private hire cars. In fact, anyone permitted to use a bus lane, I'd rather not share a road with.
Posted 6 years ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.
posts
