CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

The Sustrans proposals for Picardy Place/Leith Street

(868 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from crowriver

  1. chdot
    Admin

    "though it is not ideally located in relation to what might or might not be the cycleroute coming down beside the tram stop"

    I've always been sceptical about the tram, partly because of the management/governance set-up from the beginning.

    Also because of the money and how much more effective it would (ok could) have been if spent on ActiveTravel. (Ditto Forth Crossing, Sherrifhall roundabout etc.)

    However I now think it should run to Newhaven.

    BUT it has to integrate PROPERLY with existing (and create improved) walk/cycle infrastructure.

    P Pl will be an early indicator of how serious CEC is.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. HankChief
    Member

    Personally, I think it's better off majoring on the disappointing public space locked in by 3 lanes of traffic which is hard to reach with multiple crossings than leading with the impact on cycle routes.

    Too easy to be pidgin holed in the all powerful cycling lobby when the problems with the designs affects so much more.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. ih
    Member

    ^^^^ I absolutely, 100%, totally agree with that point of view. ^^^^

    I believe that the imposition of this unwanted retrograde city-motorway style gyratory will despoil Edinburgh for generations. In comparison with this public wrecking of our environment, the issue of whether the cycle path goes through or round the triangle is secondary. If it is designed as a genuine public space, looking forward to a time (which will inevitably come) when cities are less car dominated, the cycling infrastructure can be added easily. If the gyratory is built, the impetus towards more people-friendly spaces, and more active travel, will be lost for decades.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    I agree with ih & hankchief. This is the big one to fight

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    “the issue of whether the cycle path goes through or round the triangle is secondary”

    Yes but (the plan for it) is an indicator of priorities - ‘traffic’ first.

    To some extent some of ‘us’ want the balance to be towards cycle traffic!

    The main problem with the public space argument is the actual space - north facing largely in the shadow of JL and the new development.

    But the cathedral deserves a better setting and if it really is to be a PT interchange then that will need a fair amount of space which needs to be COVERED.

    Imagine a sizeable glass thing for wedding parties, tram waiters, a variety of markets, live entertainment of many sorts...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    That is why groups like Spokes are calling for an e-mobility strategy, not simply an e-vehicles strategy. This should start with an emphasis on getting people out of their cars by building much better infrastructure to allow people to walk and cycle; introducing a radical programme of pedestrianising large parts of our city centre; and making it much easier and more affordable to use public transport. Once we’ve prioritised these, we should look to the remaining vehicles being electric.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/chas-booth-transport-revolution-is-about-more-than-electric-cars-1-4616428

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. Blueth
    Member

    I was in Bradford earlier this year - it has a similar road idea in the city centre. The centre is effectively a wasteland, nobody seems to go there (based on my one night).

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. crowriver
    Member

    Hardly surprising no-one wants to hang out in the middle of a giant motorway style roundabout is it? Witness the bustling civic atmosphere in the centre of Hanger Lane gyratory system, London. Spot the cafe culture and high quality public realm:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Too easy to be pigeon-holed in the all powerful cycling lobby

    That is absolutely right. When I went to V&C to engage with the proposal the answer was a gleeful 'Ah, but you are catered for here....'.

    I hadn't mentioned cycling at all, but I did have a bicycle hat strapped to my rucksack.

    We should go in civvies and talk about public space and quality of life, which is what this is actually about.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. gembo
    Member

    @iwrats, yea, I sad this before about consultation in George street hotel, we MUst go in suits

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. unhurt
    Member

    Pink shirts all round?

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. neddie
    Member

    I went to the Valvona & Crolla consultation in my "civvies". There was no way you could tell I was a cyclist.

    But I still got asked "if I was a cyclist", based on my line of questioning which was mostly not about cycling, but about wrecking the city with 1960s style motorways.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    “based on my line of questioning”

    So having a view that questions outdated wisdoms means that you have to be part of the all powerful cycling mafia lobby(?)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. wingpig
    Member

    "We should go in civvies and talk about public space and quality of life, which is what this is actually about.

    @iwrats, yea, I sad this before about consultation in George street hotel, we MUst go in suits"

    Tweed. Also remember to recommend an increase in patriarchal statuary and honk on about maintaining symmetry. One such person had the ear of one of the George Street event official's ears for a considerable time.

    Wonder if there's time to get a T-shirt printed with a screenshot of the crashmap stats for the relevant location...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. crowriver
    Member

    "Pink shirts all round?"

    As it's the New Town, brightly coloured cord trousers with blazer or tweed jacket seems to be the "casual" camouflage (for males). Maybe some conservative brogues on the feet too. They'll think you arrived in a Range Rover, and will be seriously mystified when you start talking about public space...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. Klaxon
    Member

    I'd like to thank chdot for inviting Harts and I to a stakeholder meeting in today in his lieu in the run up to the public sessions in the next couple of days.

    Format was a presentation of the public presentation on the consultation hub, and then a round table session, and Q+A.

    It was made clear over the course of several questions at the end that the Picardy project is being considered in total isolation - particularly from Leith Walk.

    Harts asked a series of quite pointed questions which pretty much sum up as "Why do we have to build for traffic, against policy, why not fix what is wrong now?" to which the reply was "we can't build anything but a giratory without breaking traffic management all across the city"

    This was a callback to an earlier display of a traffic modelling video that showed doomsday levels of rat running with a "y junction"

    It's nice that they don't want to scope creep, but this justification was used time and time again to say "we can't change the plan".

    In fact, the answer to every question was "this is the design we have developed and it is the best" - quickly followed by "the design will be revisited as and when a traffic strategy for the whole city centre is developed"

    It's literally planning for failure.

    Consensus in the room was do-minimum development of the middle site to keep maximum flexibility when the day comes that it's torn up and rebuilt again

    It was stated that it is quite normal for major projects to begin construction before statutory processes of TRO and RSO are completed - can anyone fact check that? Work already carried out realigning kerbs to meet unapproved layouts is a "project risk"

    I had Alasdair Sim from SWECO on my table who was quite happy that most of the issues are a political concern and not an engineering one. His answers were mostly "Yes, that's possible, if that's what the council wants"

    Consensus in the room was also that the current staging of the pedestrian crossings is poor and that there shouldn't be any "shared space" between pedestrians and bicycles.

    Taxi rank is anticipated to be relocated to Little King St which to me is an eminently sensible place to put it as taxis can rank around the one way system at great length, and it will connect well to the new shopping centre.

    It's really important you reply to the consultation AND attend the events.

    It is important that you object to the gyratory as a whole as this will feed into the political decision in January.

    While it is unlikely at this point that we get anything but a gyratory, there actually seems to be a willingness to change the arrangement of cycle lanes, pavement, and public space. So detailed feedback on removing pedestrian/cycle conflict and catering for both user groups' needs is key.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. gibbo
    Member

    It's nice that they don't want to scope creep, but this justification was used time and time again to say "we can't change the plan".

    In fact, the answer to every question was "this is the design we have developed and it is the best" - quickly followed by "the design will be revisited as and when a traffic strategy for the whole city centre is developed"

    It's literally planning for failure.

    I get knocked for being anti-council, but this is why I'm anti-council.

    Yet again, it's going to be a case of "do it sloppily and pay twice - both in terms of money, and in terms of disruption."

    Which is fine... if you're a business owner and you're spending money that is, in effect, coming out your own pocket.

    But this isn't a private business. This is the council.

    And it's the same mentality that wasted hundreds of millions of pounds during the tram project.

    It's not just unprofessional, it's unconscionable.

    Every time you see spending cuts, or services cut, or public sector job cuts or frozen wages, understand these things are happening, in large part, because money is being wasted by a council (& Scot Gov) that doesn't feel it needs to spend money wisely.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. Klaxon
    Member

    A few other things, will post more as they come to me

    Being able to turn busses in the East and West ends is going to be a big deal in the coming years and is one of the few bits of strategic thinking that influencing the plans.

    NTBCC are very concerned about their constituents' ability to drive to their front doors in as little time as possible, and are afraid that closing Leith St to cars will mean Spurtleshire is no longer part of the city centre.

    Bus/tram interchange quality was generally regarded as low.

    No pedestrian or cycle modelling has taken place other than the consideration of pedestrian phasing in the traffic lights.

    All moves will be permitted out of the North Bridge Bypass Calton Rd once Leith St reopens

    TFE's general attitude is to provide positive priority to buses and trams, not direct negative discrimination against private vehicles.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. Morningsider
    Member

    Well, the Scottish Government don't seem to be insisting on a gyratory:

    Question S5W-12207: Alison Johnstone, Lothian, Scottish Green Party, Date Lodged: 26/10/2017

    To ask the Scottish Government what role (a) it is and (b) its agencies are playing in the proposals to redevelop Picardy Place in Edinburgh using the growth accelerator model, and what its position is on whether this in line with policies to promote designs that prioritise walking, cycling and placemaking.

    Answered by Derek Mackay (06/11/2017):

    Responsibility for the detailed design of individual elements within the St James Quarter Growth Accelerator agreement, including the design proposals for Picardy Place, is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council to lead on.

    Scottish Ministers set national policy on active travel via the Active Travel Vision and local authorities are encouraged to follow this policy. However, under the terms of the Concordat and Single outcome agreements, implementation of the Active Travel Vision is a matter for the relevant planning authority to implement.

    Current Status: Answered by Derek Mackay on 06/11/2017

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. Klaxon
    Member

    This previously unseen drawing shows what is presumably a recent draft of Leith Programme phase 6 (as yet unconsulted upon and now rolled into the tram project)

    It shows the transition from bi-directional to uni-directional cycleway happening at Montgomery St, over the toucan arrangement consulted upon as part of Phase 5.

    In addition a separate segregated northbound lane appears provided beyond Union Street.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    “to which the reply was "we can't build anything but a giratory without breaking traffic management all across the city"

    This demonstrates the height of stupidity and narrow mindedness.

    So it’s ok to disrupt the traffic - like shutting Leith Street or (slowly) putting a tram line through the centre of town - as long as ‘temporary’.

    So months (even years) for everyone to adjust/cope, but then ‘back to normal’ ASAP!!!!

    “NTBCC are very concerned about their constituents' ability to drive to their front doors in as little time as possible”

    Disappointing but not surprising, however this will be the same (sort of) people who complain about traffic past/near their houses.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. neddie
    Member

    Being able to turn busses in the East and West ends is going to be a big deal in the coming years and is one of the few bits of strategic thinking that influencing the plans.

    It doesn't need to be a gyratory simply to turn busses. It could be a small bus-only turning circle, or the busses could go "around the block" using adjacent streets, or they could turn at London Rd...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. PS
    Member

    “NTBCC are very concerned about their constituents' ability to drive to their front doors in as little time as possible”

    This is disappointing, but (having sat in on a couple of NTBCC meetings) not unexpected.

    I'll be attending tomorrow's "information event" in business attire to tell that as a resident of Spurtleshire I actively want them to make it more inconvenient for me to drive to my front door. As has been said above, this isn't about cycling, it's about public space, environment, quality of life, placemaking.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. ih
    Member

    It seems to me that decisions were taken quite a long time ago, 2006/7, maybe for valid reasons maybe not, some of which lead inexorably to a gyratory. The problem is that CEC flatly refuses to revisit those decisions, so they have to defend them with every crackpot argument they can think of. The 'buses turning' one gets my goat. Surely there are other solutions to this issue.

    One original decision that I believe is driving the 'thinking' is the position of the tram stop on Picardy Place (hard up against the north side of the triangle). This kind of militates against 2-way traffic on PP which in turn necessitates a gyratory. But why is the tram stop positioned there. There are many good reasons to have the stop in the middle of the road, and they would not in the least reduce the hubbiness of the transport hub. This would allow 2-way traffic (therefore no need for gyratory) and the treatment for cycle tracks along PP would be much easier to design, and safer for all users. It's this refusal to countenance anything different from old flawed decisions that will saddle us with a 40 year old design.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. gibbo
    Member

    @ih

    It's this refusal to countenance anything different from old flawed decisions that will saddle us with a 40 year old design.

    Funny, for a while now, I've been describing Edinburgh's transport policies as "1970s thinking."

    So 40 years sounds about right.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. PS
    Member

    The buses turning thing suggests that TfE is at least thinking about encouraging the tram for cross town transit, which could reduce the number of buses on Prices Street.

    However, the cause of this interchange would not be helped by the tram stop being in the middle of a roundabout...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. ih
    Member

    @PS "However, the cause of this interchange would not be helped by the tram stop being in the middle of a roundabout..."

    Not sure if this comment is in response to my suggestion that the tramstop could be in the middle of the road. For clarification, I am referring to the centre of the road on Picardy Place in line from York Place to Leith Walk, not in the middle of the triangle/roundabout. The Sustrans plan and the Spurtle promoted plan both go along with that idea.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. PS
    Member

    @ih The comment wasn't directed at you. I can't see how making bus passengers cross at least three lanes of traffic to get to the tram can help bus/tram interchanges.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. ih
    Member

    @PS It wouldn't be 3 lanes of traffic - that's the point of trying to reduce motorised traffic rather than encouraging it, which the gyratory will do. As for crossing traffic to get to the tramstop, no different to the tramstops on Princes St and Shandwick Pl. Also anyone getting off the tram on the triangle and hoping to get to Broughton St would have to cross double the traffic lanes, so on average, it makes no difference to tram passengers where the stop is, but it makes a big difference to the rest of the design.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. Klaxon
    Member

    I've been thinking about how to make an actual interchange and came up with this idea

    https://imgur.com/a/SmpmF

    Tram doors open right, buses left, with staggared stops so as to allow a middle lane for passing the bus stop.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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