CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

New Scotrail HST's

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  1. Tulyar
    Member

    Having tried-out the new HST with a Pashley Mailstar I've found it wanting/almost unuseable, because the stowage system has not been properly designed.

    The cupboard in the carriages, is 'tight' and the hooks move, and fail to use the weight of the bike effectively, to hold it stable and stop it swinging around. To get the bike out took 2 people, as I had to get in behind the bike to hold the hook and lift the wheel off, as the person outside than pulled the bike out.

    For the power car... words fail. 3 bikes taking up the space which could fit in 5 bikes on a properly designed rack. We gave up trying to get the bike on to the hook attached to the flapping webbing strap, which looked to have been wrongly installed.

    Anyone used yet?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

  3. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Tall, heavy, wide. The Mailstar (and its elephantine and promptus descendents) is probably the acid test of dangly bike storage, if a recumbent isn't available.

    Remind me which routes the HSTs are to work?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. ejstubbs
    Member

    Seven cities: Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness, Stirling and Perth.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. ejstubbs
    Member

    Although only running Edinburgh-Aberdeen at the moment AFAIK.

    Correction: People have reported riding in HSTs on Aberdeen-Inverness and Queen St-Perth services. I don't know whether these services are 100% HST yet, though.

    This is the route map as it will be when the switchover to the HSTs is complete:

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. LaidBack
    Member

    Arellcat Tall, heavy, wide. The Mailstar (and its elephantine and promptus descendents) is probably the acid test of dangly bike storage, if a recumbent isn't available.

    It's a good choice for a try out as is same weight as an e-bike.
    If I was involved with bike storage I would think about how my bike storage worked for this growing sector. Sure Abellio is aware of European trends etc...

    I did write suggesting that hanging bikes from hooks is a bad idea. If they do all hanging bike spaces on the new activity coaches for West Highland then that would be a bad move. (Particularly as guards there demand you hang your bike from back wheel - totally impossible for many users!)

    Hanging an 8kg road bike is only addressing one part of the market. If you are doing family / touring cycling chances are you will have mix of bikes and weights.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. gembo
    Member

    Always wondered why the hook storage requires bikes hung by back wheel? I have panniers so I hang from the front wheel. This is on the curriehill to Uddingston route. Never any bother, rarely that many other bikes though despite all the issues raised, you can get a fair few bikes into a smaller space.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. neddie
    Member

    It can’t be good for the wheel to hang the whole weight of the bike off of it. Wheels were not designed to take forces in that direction

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. gembo
    Member

    @neddie, agreed but is it better to have the heavier back wheel at the top?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Wheels were not designed to take forces in that direction

    The wheel doesn't mind, because when you sit on a bike, you increase the weight carried by the wheels by more than twice the weight of the bike itself. Your weight is transferred from frame to axle and axle to ground, via the spokes and rim. There is a reduction in tension of some spokes and an increase in others.

    An Elephant Bike is 24kg or so, plus a rider of (say) 70kg, plus a small cargo of (say) 10kg, carried by two wheels. Each wheel carries 57kg through its spokes. Hang it up by the back wheel and that wheel is supporting 24kg, possibly 34kg if you didn't unload first.

    When braking heavily, the force applied at the contact patch is half that applied to the rear of the axle dropouts, and, at the point of maximum friction at the ground, the axle is again resisted by the tension in the spokes.

    So there is nothing wrong with hanging a bike by the rear wheel, even if you leave the panniers on. Hanging by the front wheel is no worse for the head bearings than it is for the wheel because the front wheel is not resisted by the ground.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. neddie
    Member

    The wheel doesn't mind

    Sorry, do not agree.

    The rim of a wheel is designed to take a compressive force along its circumferential axis. The tension of the spokes holds the rim in compression and the tyre spreads the load (of the bike + rider) across the entire section of the rim between two adjacent spokes.

    When the bike is hung by the wheel a huge point-load is applied, perpendicular to the circumferential axis, to the midpoint of the rim section that lies between the two adjacent spokes.

    When structures that are in compression fail, the failure is often triggered by some kind of side- (or perpendicular-) loading. On top of that, high-contact stresses in the hook/rim interface could cause weaknesses and cracking.

    I do not believe that rim manufacturers design for this kind of loading.

    If you don't believe this, try removing the tyre and then cycling the bike on the rim. Let's see how long the rim lasts.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    “I do not believe that rim manufacturers design for this kind of loading.”

    That’s true but I doubt if it’s particularly significant unless very skinny rims and very heavy panniers.

    “If you don't believe this, try removing the tyre and then cycling the bike on the rim. Let's see how long the rim lasts.”

    That is completely different set of forces on an unprotected rim edge.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    Most touring rims, or those on cargo or even hybrid bikes, will withstand that kind of loading no problem. Very lightweight road rims might not, but then the bikes using those rims are unlikely to be encumbered with panniers, heavyweight frames, etc.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. LivM
    Member

    I was driving down the A9 on Sunday and saw an HST heading north somewhere near Bruar. A fine sight it was too. #thisistheageofthetrain

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Ed1
    Member

    I find my Sputnik tandem wheel that got from the bike smith 2 years ago is plenty strong has never even broke a spoke but with pannier find it difficult to hang so generally don’t hang, only once been told to hang my bike by conductor and been on the train 100s of times.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. Tulyar
    Member

    Hanging via rim as @arellcat points out is simply a reversal of the loading when a bike is ridden but with a substantially reduced load.

    The Class 156 hook system was designed (sic) by Interfleet who seem to have ignored attempts to offer advice. Hanging bikes up, where the whole bike has to be lifted off the floor presents an action at or beyond the limits set the HSE Manual Handling Regulations(MHOR 1992) so any injury sustained by a person using badly designed bike stowage, where the lifting is outside of the limits, could press for a Section 3 prosecution (HSAWA 1974) where the site owner/manager has created a condition where harm can be caused to a non-employee, through the failure to perform due diligence (to prevent harm) in designing or managing the system used by the non-employee.

    I can write a small paper on why the Class 156 design is so bad, and how the hooks are always working loose. A well designed vertical stowage system uses the weight of the bike to press the tyres against the wall/frame, and to hold the bike perpendicular to the hook mounting surface (plane) See the Tenement cycle parking rack installed for Edinburgh trial in 2005 (close near to Commonwealth Pool)

    No idea how the idiotic design came up with hanging bikes up by rear wheel, as this places handlebars in perfect place to smash into your knees, or trip over, and the dire positioning of the hooks relative to the 'wall' face with no side bearing to hold the bike perpendicular to this means that bikes crash around, as the straps (with no instructions on how to use them) won't stop this.

    The Class 153 conversions are using a stored energy lifting hook (marketed by Falco) - this design has been around for at least 20 years. It is basic and entirely mechanical, pull the arm down and charge the spring, with the arm held in place by a detent stop. Place bike front wheel on hook and tug back lightly to disengage the detent, and the stored energy in the spring assists the lifting process.

    The stowage system devised for the new Stadler Merseyrail trains is almost testes canisae it turns the front wheel whilst still having the weight of the bike pressing the front tyre against the back of the seat and sliding the wheel down the hook to press the side of the rim against a face to keep the bike upright, with the rear wheel on the floor. With bars turned by around 12-15 degrees bikes can be stacked very close together.

    Pictures are available

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Tulyar
    Member

    Whilst on the topic, the delays in converting the HST carriages to sliding doors, CET's & other details means that the services are being operated with unmodified trains delivered as they come straight from GWR mostly in 'sideswipe' livery, and I've noticed some 4-carriage sets running without the guards van (Coach A) These may be on driver training but clearly they have no 'accessible' bike spaces, and presumably no provision for wheelchair users. Anyone using these trains provide reports?

    The lack of railway vehicle workshops, has seen a production line started at Wabtec Kilmarnock, to supplement the Doncaster line (but sadly no work offered to Gemini Rail at the Caley in Springburn, which has now closed down.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. gembo
    Member

    excellent detail @Tulyar

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Arellcat
    Moderator

    When the bike is hung by the wheel a huge point-load is applied, perpendicular to the circumferential axis, to the midpoint of the rim section that lies between the two adjacent spokes.

    Don't forget that the tension in a single spoke in a well built wheel is 700-800N, and can be up to 1200N, and this is very much more than the force of the whole bike hanging from the rim. Every good wheel builder stress relieves the spokes by creating a localised overload, so the increase in tension in the wheel caused by hanging the bike is small.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. steveo
    Member

    Have scotrail given any reason (even a rubbish one) for not using the space in the locos?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Has Scotrail commented on the issues at all?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. fimm
    Member

  24. acsimpson
    Member

    "Meanwhile, in Germany, everyone is welcome to travel by train, unlike on @ScotRail which thing passenger should be discouraged from traveling..."

    https://twitter.com/kim_harding/status/1172241177820762114

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Tulyar
    Member

    Well several issues here

    1) Class 43 have issues on noise levels, ride quality, fire suppression, & door security.

    2) Design of bike space has several flaws, highlighted when first train seen last October.

    Will do more details when back at base. Meantime can someone check dimensions for widths & heights of bike cupboard

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Tulyar
    Member

    Where trying out the first new type HST we observed the following :

    1) the bike cupboard design is rubbish

    The hook positions are wrong they fail to use the weight of bikes to hold them secure and at 90 degrees to wall/floor

    The hooks move making it much harder to hang up a bike

    The hooks are 'U' shaped - making it harder to slide the bike on - sloping, not level though

    2) not spotted, the swinging bike hits the emergency door release - the interlock on this makes a full emergency brake application.

    3) The power cars have an abominable arrangement that badly has 3 bikes hanging on straps, which proved impossible to load when we tried it out.

    This could be replaced by a unit that can take up to 5 bikes but news just received us that this space is now not available at all.

    Will post more later

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Is part of the problem the fundamental constraints of the UK loading gauge?

    When once a bike was a ten speed, with skinny 27" wheels and narrow dropped handlebars; we then had mountain bikes with 26" wheels, two-inch tyres, long stems and narrow handlebars. Now, the fashion and the market is 29" wheels, 2.5" or wider tyres, and handlebars that make barge poles look small, and train interior design calls for dangly spaces and more seats.

    I think there is a gradual backdoor erosion of bike capacity, not just in the numbers of bikes but in acceptable variety. Tandems and recumbents are on a shoogly peg, as are their owners. Where will it end? Even my Brompton felt oversized and ungainly at the weekend when I was jumping between rattling Northern stock, Pendolinos and an Azuma.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Tulyar
    Member

    Confirmed that ScotRail have no safety protocols for loading bikes in power cars

    2 bikes per train on train with 2x seats of old ones, which had 4 bikes/train.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    “Confirmed that ScotRail have no safety protocols for loading bikes in power cars”

    And presumably no intention of doing anything about?

    Wasn’t the ‘original idea’ that these could only be used at stations where service started and ended?

    At present the ‘new’ trains could easily keep to timetable with bike loading delays at all intermediate stations. It will be interesting to see if/when timetables can be altered to allow 125s’ capabilities to actually be used.

    Easy if no slower trains ‘in the way’ but not so with existing rolling stock and stopping patterns.

    “with 2x seats of old ones”

    Which ones?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. crowriver
    Member

    More seats than Class 170 / Turbostar DMUs. But fewer bike spaces, less convenient to use...

    As a foot passenger I prefer the HSTs to !70s. Quieter, more comfortable. Toilets outside there passenger cabin so no whiffs carrying through to your nostrils.

    As an occasional bike and ride person, the 170s are better. Fife circle, Borders rail, or Dundee/Perth only trains still an option here. Aberdeen/Inverness are switching over to HSTs for most services.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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