CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Questions/Support/Help

Getting an unreserved bike on the train

(74 posts)
  • Started 5 years ago by Andrew-AWS
  • Latest reply from chdot
  • This topic is not resolved

  1. Andrew-AWS
    Member

    I was planning to join a couple of friends on a cycling/camping trip in a few days, using the Edinburgh-Inverness rail line to get to Dalwhinnie. They managed to book theirs a while ago with reserved bike spaces, but when I went online (scotrail website) to buy my ticket, there were no more spaces available. Is chancing it on the day a viable option?

    There was a similar thread a few months ago exploring pretty much the same question, which seemed to give the advice "go for it" - but that was in colder weather with presumably far fewer people travelling.

    Looking at info from spokes and the Cycling Scot website, it looks like on that line the train will either be a refurbished InterCity 125s with only 2 official hanging bike spaces available per train (unless you're going right through to Inverness/Edinburgh); a Class 170, which has 4 official space; or a 'Classic' old InterCity (the one where you have to put your arm out the window to open the door) - I can't find out how many spaces they have.

    I'd appreciate any thoughts on the likelihood of being able to get my bike on the train even if the few offical spaces are taken up. Thanks!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. LaidBack
    Member

    Think it was @Klaxon that could confirm what type of unit was allocated on each route.
    As you say now more complex.
    If a 170 chances are it will be ok as bit more flexibility to take extra bike and no access issues to 'guards van' in power car.
    I've been using trains to Dundee a bit and only one was a new / old 125 with slam doors.
    Guard just let me put bike in large power car area at front with big bike logo painted. No drama / no other bikes. Train went on to Aberdeen.
    No bike booking required on East coast.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    “No bike booking required on East coast.”

    With ScotRail for ‘local’ trains .

    This is the official advice

    Reserving a cycle space
    You need to make a reservation on services between:

    Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen
    Glasgow, Edinburgh and Inverness
    Glasgow, Oban, Fort William and Mallaig
    Aberdeen and Inverness

    https://www.scotrail.co.uk/plan-your-journey/cycling/bikes-trains

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. gembo
    Member

    Well, you could chance it with your pals given they have the reservations. Last time I went to Inverness it was a standard type scotrail train like the Glasgow Edinburgh ones on the way up so maybe 4 bike spaces but that does seem generous. Managed three on the rack down to Stow the other day. Obviously with friendly guard I have seen maybe five in the space en route to Stirling but have also been refused by grumpy guard. They may have tightened up on friendliness.

    On way back down it was the intercity train, first one out on a Sunday morning, struggled up to Culloden with frost on tracks. Huge train for that journey (though maybe goes onwards to the south?).

    The cubby hole can maybe fit three especially if your two pals don't mind but again the guard will decide.

    Sometimes there is an actual guards van on some of the intercity trains, or there used to be and these took a proper amount of bikes. Is that what you mean by going all the way to Inverness? (Adopts cod highland accent - Don't go with that man Morag he'll take you all the way to Inverness).

    From Dalwhinnie if you get up there are you looking to end the camping cycling holiday in Inverness?

    I always feel you stand a slightly better chance of getting bikes on at terminus than at stages on the route.

    If you need to be back for anything particular this might be a factor to consider?

    If you have more time and the inclination you might consider cycling to Dalwhinnie and back? But it is a long way.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    If I recall correctly @Tulyar insists that you have the right to put a cycle (in a bag?) in the hold of an intercity coach. The Inverness coach stops in Dalwhinnie.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. gembo
    Member

    Yeah @iwrats, I think the OP is possibly alluding to the idea you can get the bike in the bag out of the hold at Inverness as an option? Though only the intercity models have the hold?

    But they won't open the hold at Dalwhinnie?

    So maybe that is a possibility if train is intercity? But would involve cycling fromminverness yo Dalwhinnie which is not as far as Edinburgh to Dalwhinnie cycle?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Coach as in big bus not train? Stops at Dalwhinnie.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. Greenroofer
    Member

    Key point to consider is whether you've got a direct train from Edinburgh or you're changing at Stirling I've given up on the latter even with a reservation after getting to Stirling and finding the train full of unreserved bikes from Glasgow. You wouldn't want to be stuck in Stirling without a bike reservation. Alternative would be to take a local train to Perth and ride from there. It's not that far and quite pleasant once you're past Ballinluig.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    "Alternative would be to take a local train to Perth and ride from there."

    That would be a great little expedition in itself and probably more practical. About 60 miles... Shouldn't be a problem to get the bike on the non-Inverness trains. It's pot luck on the Inverness trains with a full sized bike unfortunately.

    Possible route: https://goo.gl/maps/fiZV9go3zb56KnYs7

    Alternatively, if you have (or can hire/ borrow) a folding bike with decent sized wheels then you can just fold it up and stow in a luggage rack or behind a seat. Tern do a 26" folder, or there's the superb Airnimal folding bike range with 24" wheels.

    Also, IWRATS has a point, you may be better getting a coach. Scottish Citylink take bikes in the luggage hold in a bag (can be a big polythene thing) subject to space. Timetable here:
    https://www.citylink.co.uk/timetables/Summer2019/edinburgh-inverness.pdf

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. Greenroofer
    Member

    @crowriver - I concur on your possible route. While the quality of the path beside the A9 leaves a lot to be desired, it's OK on anything over 23mm tyres. I understand the bit near Dunkeld that used to be unsealed has recently been sealed.

    ...and it beats sitting around in Stirling waiting for a bike space that may or may not be available.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    Scottish Citylink CoC Clause 56 - do write to Peter Knight at Citylink asking about likely launch of their new website/app which has a promised facility to reserve seats (& bike spaces)

    At least 2 regular users taking bikes on the 900 (Edinburgh-Glasgow) with throw-over covers - arrive & load in under 60 seconds.

    I think Inverness services that do call at Dalwhinnie, pull off via old road. More services stop at Aviemore - ride back along old road/Spey & Truim valleys - fairly flat. Faster than train to Broxden (usually) May have capacity issues if an 80 seat 'decker. 65 seat 15m has lot of space.

    Remember that no standing on a coach - so advisable to book a seat (£1 charge for open return & entitlement card holders). On Gold services you get free drink & snack.

    Very handy for Saturday morning ferries from Oban, especially as 08.21 train almost always booked well in advance service 976 06.15, 09.00, 10.30 takes 2h 55m via Rest & be Thankful 06.15 provides connection with 04.50 train from Edinburgh (Glasgow or Arrochar)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. Tulyar
    Member

    NB @IWRATS Coach as in 100 Km/h No standing, Seat belts, Tachograph vs 90 Km/h, standing allowed & local rules under 50Km

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. Andrew-AWS
    Member

    Thanks all for the replies, very helpful folks. The reason I said there were 2 bike spaces per train "unless you're going right through to Inverness/Edinburgh" was because on the refurbished InterCity 125s, there are apparently 6 further spaces in the power car, but these are only unlocked at the initial station and the terminus.

    Thanks @Greenroofer for the warning about changing to a train from Glasgow, thankfully that doesn't seem to be an issue here.

    The idea of a longer bike ride is a good one to consider for another trip, but I don't really have the time for it on this occasion (and I don't have panniers at the moment for my camping gear, so it's all going on my back.)

    The coach alternative is a good shout. I'll have a think about whether I want to chance the train or just go separately by coach.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. LaidBack
    Member

    Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen... bike booking required as Scotrail now say.
    Never, ever booked a bike on a Scotrail train to Dundee. Guards or barrier staff have never asked for a bike ticket - as fast trains are every hour if train was full I'd go for next or slow one between.
    I know GLNER will block any 'casual' use of their surplus bike capacity. XC too.

    On Highland line the idea was to put more regular trains on but single track railway still.

    Anyone know if the famed extra bike coach on West Highland will appear?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. Tulyar
    Member

    On 25th I went down to Kilmarnock with Ross from Sustrans, and Lee Craigie, & others, although the small capacity of the meeting room meant there were 2 'shifts' who didn'y meet.

    The first 2 units will be out for 2020, and the first route will be Glasgow-Oban, where currently the greatest pressure for space exists (08.21 train on Saturday mornings is usually 100% booked very quickly, whilst only 20-50% of space on Fort William section is taken)

    I know some of the tour planners who will be using this capacity, but it would be very useful to be ready to fill this space when it arrives, and justify the move by Transport Scotland to back this scheme. Please feed their details through (PM or e-mail)

    The layout as it has been developed so far is pretty good, 20 regular bikes can be fitted into 2-bike frames and the door vestibule divider will be removed, to make 50% of the coach a bike & luggage space. Around 24 seats (mostly table) should remain with the toilet and trolley stowage in the other half. The current design of securing frame has a 'tray' for the front wheel which is designed to let it slide down against a vertical support against which the bike can be secured - this is similar to the design which has been in use for over 30 years across much of Europe.

    Tandems, recumbents(boom forward), bikes with front pannier carriers (and rear racks if the bike has to be put in backwards), may have to be fitted in with adapted use of the current design of frames. The design has some flexibility with a clear 2 metres for bikes using the frame, and longer space using the gaps, plus around 2.3-2.4m for the frames (4) at the cab/doors end before the doors. Pressure for Scotrail to reconsider their position WRT tandems,and trikes might be appropriate, especially if a discreet portfolio of unofficial 'proof' can be built up noting that the new Class 385 has a clear 2.48 metres of bike space and an 80cm gap for the draught screen at the doors (this could be widened to 1.0m by removing the glazed extension and moving the grab-rail back to make loading faster, & easier)

    Meanwhile some alternative porn!

    https://live.staticflickr.com/video/48135674796/3a6e186975/720p.mp4?s=eyJpIjo0ODEzNTY3NDc5NiwiZSI6MTU2MTg4NTA0OCwicyI6IjUwZDFkNGZmMGFlMWI1MmU5ODk5MWMyNmRiMGRhNDcwYjQwZGQ0YjAiLCJ2IjoxfQ

    Deluxe convertible seating (PBLeasing innovation train)

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/48135687732/in/photostream/

    Budget price fold-up seats (knee-sex spacing!)

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/48011925122/in/photostream/

    '10 second' bike cover! (on Citylink 900)

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/48011848223/in/photostream/

    Class 385 bike space - ruler = 2.0m in 20 cm sections note how removing glass panel would improve access

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. LaidBack
    Member

    Thanks @Tulyar
    Good to hear that the project will go ahead - albeit a bit slower than hoped for. Lee Craigie and the crew will deal with them if they don't deliver!

    Links for last two Flickr images are one click out of so?. Can see the ruler on floor. Could post the bike cover for bus again maybe.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. Tulyar
    Member

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/48011925152/in/datetaken/

    Rides for Deliveroo in Edinburgh lives in Glasgow

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. Mandopicker101
    Member

    Traveller beware! I was refused entry to this evening's InterCity service from Aviemore to Edinburgh. Whilst not having a bike reservation (I had a seat reserved), past trips have never required reservations to be shown. Indeed, trip up on the 'regular' train was 100% fine and the guard was very happy to have six bikes in the bicycle space (officially fit 2).

    This evening's guard was most irate, loudly asserting it was HIS job on the line if/when someone was injured by a bike falling over. The tourists and I pointed to a large, empty space in the adjoining carriage.

    NOT for bikes! With a puff of his whistle, he was gone. The foreign tourists remonstrating with him looked bewildered - how can an InterCity train only have two bike spaces? Suggestions of putting our bikes in the guards van were not even entertained.

    I'm heading south on a CityLink coach, bike in the hold, as is. No problem in doing so. Driver entirely happy. Sure it'll maybe have a scratch (sob) but I'll get home tonight. I surely hope the other visitors left behind in Aviemore are similarly lucky.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. Tulyar
    Member

    Please do tweet "Thank You Citylink for sorting out me (& tourists?) when Scotrail couldn't find 'space' on a not-full train" & include @IainDocherty (independent Scotrail Board member), @AlexHynes, Lee Craigie, '@CitylinkPete' (MD) plus of course @Scotrail and @Scotcitylink

    I think you might also find that the coach is faster between Perth & Edinburgh (M90 more direct than either rail route) & if you caught a Citylink Gold service you'd get a Tunnocks wafer/teacake & a wee cup or can o drink (although choices are limited)

    Maybe pictures!

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    @Tulyer: I think you might also find that the coach is faster between Perth & Edinburgh (M90 more direct than either rail route)

    Which is at least partly the M90 was built over parts of the direct rail route aka the Glenfarg Line. A double track express-standard main line railway taking a more-or-less direct north-south route between Edinburgh and Perth, it was closed in 1970 despite it not being listed for closure by Beeching (it was actually recommended for strategic development in his report), leaving trains between the two cities to take the slower and longer route via Kirkcaldy and Markinch. Two years later, it was found convenient to run the M90 south from Bridge of Earn and across the steep northern flank of Balmanno Hill using part of the route of the only recently disused railway.

    You can still walk through the tunnels built to take the railway through Glen Farg itself, about half a km east of the route that the M90 takes: http://www.glenfarg.org/downloads/Railway%20Tunnels.pdf.

    (More info, links and pictures of the route here, for those who might be interested.)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    “despite it not being listed for closure by Beeching”

    Didn’t realise that. Clearly part of ‘the future is road’ attitude at the time - which hasn’t gone away...

    “You can still walk through the tunnels”

    Didn’t realise that either. Could it be turned into a useful walk/cycle route?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. ejstubbs
    Member

    There are a number of reports online writtin by folks who have explored the tunnels, e.g:

    http://www.abandonedscotland.com/glenfarg-railway-tunnels-guest-article/

    https://benvironment.org.uk/post/47696299434/benigmatic-scotland-glenfarg-railway-tunnels

    From the descriptions and the photos it seems that the track bed, tunnels and the viaduct (at the south end of the southern tunnel) are in pretty good nick and wouldn't take much work to turn them in to a cycle route. Whether it would take you anywhere you might want to go is maybe another matter. I suppose it could make a useful bypass to avoid the steepest bits on NCN route 775 as it climbs out of Strathearn, although you would end up with an extra couple of miles or so on the B996 that the NCN route follows to get to Glenfarg village. According to the last link I posted above, the steepest gradients on the section between Kelty and Bridge of Earn were 1 :73, which sounds rather less of a challenge than the 1:5 to 1:7 pitch that the OS has marked on the yellow road currently followed by NCN 775.

    I don't know how friendly or otherwise the B996 is. I'd guess that any traffic on that road will will have come from/be going to the A912, since there's zip all else on the B996 north of Glenfarg village until you reach the A912, so the volume of traffic would likely be the same as on the bit of the B996 that NCN 775 already uses.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. Tulyar
    Member

    A route which strategically could be high on a list of restored railways, perhaps behind Melrose-Carlisle and Stanley-Kinnaber (this as a faster Perth-Aberdeen route and an alternative to a tricky double tracking of a section on Montrose-Arbroath. It would enable wiring-up of lines to the South by sequential line closures, as happened for EGIP and operating around each element

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    On mad train south from inver Sneckie. All reservations void. Only one loo. Rammed.

    Two frenchies get on with heavily ladened biciclettes

    Chap from Inverness volunteers to fold his bike up to let them use the rack.

    No chance the frenchies reserved. The guard had to call them back as they ran past the bike carriage. One of them isn’t even french. (English but fair accent I would judge)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  25. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Enjoy Culloden viaduct.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    At Perth now, four bikes on the train. The first two so heavily packed they were taking up three spaces. Folder got off at Perth. People who had 50 inch telly on two seats been told to move it. Standing room only.

    Glorious sunshine over Culloden and down to Dunkeld.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  27. Morningsider
    Member

    Pictures of the "new" bike carrying coaches (yes, yes - upgraded class 153 units) for the West Highland line.

    The layout and bike holders look "interesting"...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  28. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    At least no hooks...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  29. Morningsider
    Member

    ...or tandems, recumbents, trikes, trailers...

    Posted 5 years ago #
  30. Tulyar
    Member

    I've been going to the meetings on this over the past year including a visit to Brodies to sample the cycle stowage. A good design, although it might have issues for smaller wheel sizes.

    4 bays will have approx 1.8m spacing (although the racks for the bay between the middle partition and radiator header tank (above the floor)) have been omitted from the press release picture.

    The cab-end racks are around 2.3 metres from the door vestibule partition, and the partition is completely removed except for the housing that carries the door controls

    Here's what I posted on Facebook

    Very specifically these single carriages have been provided for a route which has a known demand for group travel, initially for the very popular Western Isles cycle touring holidays. We've kept pressing at the Scotrail Cycle Forum for acceptance of tandems and trikes, and they can (and do) fit into the spaces on many Scotrail trains especially the newer electrics where the space is 2.4m long, and the draught screen is cut back. The bike bays on the 153 (the illustration has removed the 4 trays between the radiator header tank, which sticks up through the floor and the mid-coach partition), are generally at 1.8 metre spacing. The 4 bays closest to the doors can accommodate a longer cycle. I checked with notes from a visit we had at Brodies earlier this year and the last frame before the doors - in approximately the planned position - is approx 2.3 metres from the current door vestibule partition, which is being removed back to the door control buttons, to give a clear roll-in from the doors. Tandems also fit on coaches (we've tested this), so there is a 'rescue' option in some parts of Scotland (Citylink/Stagecoach Express) if the bike is 'covered' or packed appropriately.

    In other news I set up a meeting with CyclingUK and LNER regarding the bike spaces on Azumas - perhaps a separate thread? As a result they are working with Hitachi to rectify the problems we highlighted with the hanging system (the detail of which was adversely changed between our try-out of the mock-up unit in 2014, and the production versions now in service). CUK has also commented to a journalist who may be covering this story.

    Then on to the Cross Country Voyagers - where I got a brusque comment from my contact there (that U was stirring it up) after a social media flurry where I was highlighting the fact that the design and delivery are very much the province of the train designers (Bombardier) and owners/maintainers (Beacon Rail), and DfT sets the spec for the franchise contract, rather than shouting at the operator. Expecting something might appear in the Guardian on this one.

    Finally the IC7 HST's - Scotrail is refusing to accept any more trains until the faults being found on the ones delivered so far have been sorted. As a result the 'new' trains are running with only 4 carriages vice 5, and thus only 2 bike spaces on every train, as the protocols/safety procedures for train staff and platform staff to open the van doors and load/unload bikes have hit a problem. Not sure exactly what this is, so of anyone has more detail.

    To this we can add the Active Travel Commissioner getting put-off an HST at Perth after her bike handlebars - swinging around outside the cupboard (as the opening was too narrow), smashed into the emergency door release and put the train brakes on. A subsequent post showed the door release taped over with red PVC tape.

    Posted 5 years ago #

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