CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Access Rights over Railway Bridge

(43 posts)

12

  1. HankChief
    Member

    This is one for the legal eagles on here...

    There is an old railway bridge just north of Edinburgh Gateway which is too low for the proposed electrification on the ECML.

    Network Rail are proposing to remove it this Christmas, but it does prove a useful, if a little rough, route to avoid the Maybury junction.

    In due course there should be a new bridge very close to Edinburgh Gateway but that seems to be in deadlock for now.

    So my question is what rights do the general public have to maintain the route?

    I can see it as a uncoloured 'Other road, drive or track' in a 1980 and more recent OS maps.

    TIA

    Posted 3 years ago #

  2. Arellcat
    Moderator

    The residents of Gogar Mains might have the main claim to use of the bridge, in terms of grandfathered rights only, as there was no other obvious function for the bridge when the railway severed GM's connection with Meadowfield and the road to Linlithgow and beyond.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  3. HankChief
    Member

    The West Craigs developer, as owner of Meadowfield farm, has Access Rights.

    I'm just surprised* that the general public doesn't despite being used regularly for years.

    *I may be confusing my very limited English & Scottish Law.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  4. neddie
    Member

    This is indeed a very useful bridge for getting "the boy" safely to the airport to watch planes (when there are any)

    Posted 3 years ago #

  5. HankChief
    Member

    Strava says 400 'athletes' have gone Northbound over it a total of 900 times.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  6. acsimpson
    Member

    Oh dear. That bridge is, as you say, a great way of getting across the railway without the requirement to go Near Maybury.

    Wikipedia suggests that it would be a right of way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_way but what obligations there are is unclear from the article.

    From what i can find in a couple articles it looks like it should count as a road even though it's not adopted.(https://ashworths-solicitors.co.uk/private-roads/, https://www.lawscot.org.uk/members/journal/issues/vol-55-issue-05/raiders-of-the-lost-roads/ )

    Posted 3 years ago #

  7. Morningsider
    Member

    Is there a public right of way over the bridge? The bridge may well have been created as a private access. Unfortunately, you would probably need access to the map book which accompanied the act authorising the line to check.

    The fact that the public use the bridge is not enough - they need to have a right to use it for it to be a right of way. The agreement of the landowner isn't enough.

    Even if it is a right of way, the fact that an alternative is being proposed may be enough to see this bridge demolished - as rights of way get moved all the time because of development.

    Would be interesting to see what Network Rail have to say about it. They have certainly rebuilt, or jacked up, existing farm access bridges as part of previous electrification projects.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  8. acsimpson
    Member

    Looking at the NLS maps it's got a long history.

    The bridge itself seems to date from the construction of the railway first appearing on the map in 1898
    (https://maps.nls.uk/view/74488700). It isn't on the 1877 map so I assume was built around 1890 when the railway and Forth Bridge was opened. At that time it was very much shown as a minor bridge (possibly on the line of an unmapped field access track) with Meadowfield Road being the main crossing of the railway.

    No much then happens on the maps for 60 years with this map in 1953 being the last to show both bridges: https://maps.nls.uk/view/193322634

    1957 then brings in changes (https://maps.nls.uk/view/197235611). The older Meadowfield Road bridge disappears and more significantly Turnhouse Airport is mapped of the first time. This coincides with the 1956 expansion of the airport and I assume the location no longer being a military secret. The runway at the time was what was until recently the crosswind runway so air traffic overflew the old bridge and that may (or may not) be the reason it was removed.

    The next map is from 1965 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/197235605) and shows the existing track for the first time. It's available at higher scale (https://maps.nls.uk/view/188146083) which shows the current alignment as far as far as Myreton Drive.

    The later maps are still in copyright so not available online, however the ones that I have in paper show no changes from then onwards other than the addition of Gogar Roundabout and then Myreton Drive.

    The track clearly attracts enough traffic that it is not overgrown and I would suggest that it therefore very much fits the definition of a road/public right of way. Although Network Rail could apply for a stopping up order doing so when they AIUI have been the cause of delays on the new bridge feels wrong.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  9. acsimpson
    Member

    @morningsider, you beat me by a second with your post. As my map list shows the bridge wouldn't be in an 1838 book as the railway was build as access to the Forth Bridge.

    If they are relying on the new bridge then so they still need to apply for a stopping up order?

    The SNH document linked to by wikipedia suggest that the public having access to the road for 20 years is sufficient to create a right of way. Is that not the case or is it just very hard to prove.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  10. ejstubbs
    Member

    AIUI it's not just the public having access to a route that can qualify it as a right of way, but members of the public have to actually have been using the route continuously over the qualifying period. I'm sure I've read of cases where local people have had to testify to having used a particular route (and I think it's also important that they haven't been asked not to do so) over the qualifying period - and this can sometimes require a number of different testimonies in order to create a sufficiently continuous record of use.

    Bear in mind that (a) I may be thinking of English law here, and Scottish law may be different, and (b) I may more simply be talking out of my hat*. Morningsider should be the authoritative voice on this I think.

    * It's just occurred to me to wonder whether this idiomatic phrase has anything to do with Joseph Smith?

    Posted 3 years ago #

  11. Morningsider
    Member

    @acsimpson - yes, my mistake, forgot this bridge was over the Forth Bridge approach lines rather than the E&G. I managed to update the post in time. Seems that the line between Saughton Junction and Dalmeny was authorised in 1887 and built over the next couple of years. Not sure which Act it was authorised under.

    @ejstubbs - for a route to qualify as a right of way it must meet all of the following requirements:

    1. It must join two public places, such as roads or other rights of way.
    2. It must follow a reasonably defined route.
    3. It must have been used, openly and peaceably, by the general public, as a matter of right, i.e. not just with the permission of the landowner.
    4. It must have been used without significant interruption for a period of at least 20 years.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  12. HankChief
    Member

    I wonder whether the GPS recording of usage by Strava & other Apps will be come useful in the future to show the regular use of routes over an extended period.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  13. HankChief
    Member

    4. It must have been used without significant interruption for a period of at least 20 years.

    I'm trying to remember back to the tram development days and whether the full route to the A8 remained throughout. I'm not sure it was there during the days we were corralled down an avenue of heras fencing but I do recall the meadowfield farm sign going up that prompted me to investigate where to led.

    Posted 3 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Correct answer. Nowhere!

    The path just stops because of disagreement over 'Air rights' due to Network Rail to put a bridge across tracks to access Edinburgh Gateway Station

    (Meanwhile NR want demolish nearby bridge)

    1st residents move in next month but no route to train or tram

    “

    https://mobile.twitter.com/hank_chief/status/1556326078880292864?s=21&t=P-JpssHbulg_pOYI1r3M3A

    Posted 2 years ago #

  15. dedekay
    Member

    Hi, I badgered Network Rail about this last year. I believe it's called Renwick's Bridge. My concern is the removal of what would be an excellent active travel link between West Craigs and the proposed developments south of the railway line. (i.e. Crosswind and West Town Edinburgh)

    Incidentally Network Rail apparently would 'encourage and support safer cycling on quieter routes'.

    FWIW I understand the electrification project is on hold for now and Network Rail were exploring who, if anyone, had rights of access across the bridge.

    The short term replacement solution is by way of the steps and footbridge across the platforms at the Gateway station!

    Posted 2 years ago #

  16. wangi
    Member

    Interesting that the mile post marked on this map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.94251&lon=-3.32700&layers=170&b=1 is still present on current OS mapping.

    (you don't go putting mile posts on private tracks, do you?)

    Posted 2 years ago #

  17. Tulyar
    Member

    What has happened to the underbridge, South of Meadowfield Farm?

    Obviously Further along you have the old A9 & then Cammo Road bridge sites

    Posted 2 years ago #

  18. HankChief
    Member

    The underbridge (shown in wangi's map) isn't there any more.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  19. ejstubbs
    Member

    @wangi: Interesting that the mile post marked on this map ... is still present on current OS mapping.

    (you don't go putting mile posts on private tracks, do you?)

    That milepost is on the railway; you can trace them every quarter of a mile along the railway (with some missing/not shown, but that might well just be the OS not recording all of them). The next one towards Dalmeny is marked as the 6 mile milepost, so the particular one you've highlighted marks 5¾ miles from the origin point, which makes it Waverley station.

    (Another point, although somewhat peripheral to this particular topic: just because something is still shown on the OS map doesn't mean that it's actually still there. The online version of the 1:50,000 mapping still shows an actual railway between Loanhead and Millerhill which, for most of its length, is now a cycle path. But it also shows the Spire hospital at Shawfair which I'm pretty sure post-dates the lifting of the tracks. The 1:25,000 map only shows the tracks in situ between Gilmerton station and Shawfair, and the 'standard mapping' correctly shows a path, so they know the railway's not there any more but presumably CBA to update certain of the mapping. Last time I passed by that way - sometime during lockdown as part of my ScoGov mandated exercise - there were still tracks in situ from Millerhill as far as the old Millerhill Road, to the east of the Borders Railway.)

    Posted 2 years ago #

  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    @Hankchief: The underbridge (shown in wangi's map) isn't there any more.

    It's still shown on Defra's Magic Map web app! Nice to know that their decision making is based on accurate and up-to-date information...

    (And as another side note, it appears that the rather useful City of Edinburgh Council Atlas is no longer publicly accessible. The bookmark I had for it now takes you to an ArcGIS logon page - with no means of registration - and the links that turn up on Google hits for "City of Edinburgh Council Atlas" do the same. Bloomin' marvellous.)

    Posted 2 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    “it appears that the rather useful City of Edinburgh Council Atlas is no longer publicly accessible”

    Yeah I noticed that recently.

    There is another CEC map, perhaps with fewer layers.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  22. Tulyar
    Member

    How's John Lauder getting started with his Network Rail secondment to develop walking & cycling with Scotland's Railway. One to raise with him?

    Posted 2 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    Yes, how is he getting on…

    Posted 2 years ago #

  24. ejstubbs
    Member

    @chdot: There is another CEC map, perhaps with fewer layers.

    Do you have a link? As I say, all my Google hits ended up dumping me on the ArcGIS logon page.

    Posted 2 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    Yes/no

    Either I’m misremembering or missing the full version - now seems there are only atomised versions available

    Thought this was it

    https://cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=783e530d92994246bcaeb7419437fd78

    Seems to be only one layer (?!?)

    Others here

    https://data.edinburghcouncilmaps.info/

    Posted 2 years ago #

  26. ejstubbs
    Member

    Thanks, that arcgis.com one works for me - all the layers seem to be there, accessed via the 'three slices of toast- menu icon at the top right. I had to zoom in to make some of the layers, e.g. core paths, visible.

    ( I note that in my bookmarked URL the DNS address was "edinburghcouncil.maps.arcgis.com" whereas in the link that works the DNS address is "cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com". Looks like they set up a new account for some reason.)

    Posted 2 years ago #

  27. HankChief
    Member

    I've invited John Lauder into the chat...

    https://twitter.com/hank_chief/status/1558095536737107973

    Posted 2 years ago #

  28. Tulyar
    Member

    I'm remembering the work of Bicycle Bob Silvermann from le Monde a Biciclette in Montreal - when faced with the challenge of access to bridges across the St Lawrence River

    Perhaps a small team of 'bunnies' might turn up to use the Schroedingers Bridge under the railway, that Defra says exists but real life suggests otherwise?

    Rabbits are notoriously good at burrowing, so if that bridge is still there, it just needs digging out?

    As with Doubledykes Road this project will be at GRIP stage 7 or 8 and making changes has penalties & is highly discouraged

    BUT if the bridge abutments remain, and a basic 4 metre Armco tube can be dropped in to place, with spoil from the digging out then used to cover it over, this might just be workable, especially if a long blockade is scheduled to relay rails, or run out the knitting...

    Again if there is an opportunity to sit with the project team and ask the questions...?

    I had some pricing for just such a tube from John Grimshaw recently as it would also have sorted a problem out at Preston - relatively low cost to deliver to site and assemble, then drag in to the gap between the old bridge abutments (which are presumably buried in the embankment)

    web trawlers - any old pictures of this bridge?

    Posted 2 years ago #

  29. boothym
    Member

    According to a comment on the OpenStreetMap note from Alex (I think of this parish), "intention is for bridge construction to start in December 2023 for ~6 months" - dunno if it's actually started?
    https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/2143310#map=18/55.94173/-3.32206&layers=N

    Posted 11 months ago #

  30. acsimpson
    Member

    If that's true it's great news. I haven't noticed from the railway line (which I've used now then usual this month) but then I haven't been looking for it either.

    Posted 11 months ago #

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