Ok not everyone is a Mikael Colville-Andersen fan but this is fun for cyclists, planners and engineers.
10 mins video.
Part of Life Size City series.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
The Unholy Trinity of Bridge Stupidity in Copenhagen - MCA video report
(47 posts)-
Posted 3 years ago #
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I'll be honest, it's less "not a fan" and more "if his judgement can be *that* wrong(and his rhetoric that shitty and clickbaity) about ebikes, why would I listen to him about anything else?" - there are plenty of infrastructure/active travel/liveable city activists, professionals, and amateurs putting out insightful content and commentary these days who don't have such a glaring blindspot/attitude problem.
Posted 3 years ago # -
@Yodhrin - Maybe we need a Mikael Colville-Andersen thread?
Before I sold e-bikes I would have maybe agreed with him. Much of what he says with regards bike types hinges around classic bike fashion. Yes a 3 speed bike is great if your capital city is flattish or you are powerful rider!EdFoC did bring him over a few years ago. He sat at a cafe on Mound after we helped take down his exhibition at the Hub. Kim and Ulli had to admit that cyclists going by on a Sunday were few and far between - only hard core ones. Later on he returned to Dundee on another EdFoC event and looked out at the new V&A from his hotel surrounded by traffic and agreed that Edinburgh was not so bad.
Reason I posted the video is that people maybe think Copenhagen always gets cycling right. In this case it goes away from usual MCA script of 'we know best'.
In this case the 'kissing bridge' dumps cyclists out onto a congested harbour side as they didn't plan for what happens when you make cycling faster and easier.In Edinburgh of course cyclists are never advantaged truly so the existing narrow paths can usually cope :-(
Posted 3 years ago # -
If what he was saying was limited to the usual "ebikes are cheating" guff that'd be one thing, but he's full-tilt on the "ebikes are glorified scooters ridden by wealthy white snobs trying to undermine the Spirit Of True Cycling!!!11" vitriol, and I really just don't have any time for somebody with that big a blindspot in their thinking - everyone has bad takes on something according to someone, somewhere's point of view, and normally I'm all for being generous and putting aside unrelated dumb remarks providing they're not outright bigotry etc, but in this case they aren't unrelated.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I just tune that out just like a lot of noise on social media etc as clickbait.
Whatever the faults of MCA the Copenhagenize approach at least cut through the view that cyclists must wear special clothing to go down the shops on their bikes. Also a big proponent of desire lines where routes would reflect where people want to go rather than what planners think will work.
Quote from Copenhagenize site
http://www.copenhagenize.com/2014/02/the-e-bike-sceptic.html
E-bikes serve a purpose. Absolutely. They are a great niche addition to the existing armada of bicycles that have served citizens for 125 years. They have the potential of increasing the mobility radius of cycling citizens - especially the elderly. All good.All I've done is questioned the Hype Cloud. Looking at important issues like safety. Mostly because too many people are dazzled by the e-bike industry rhetoric and I want to explore both sides of the coin.
I hope that when I'm elderly, I'll be fit and able enough to ride a bicycle. Having an e-option, however, is good. We'll see how it works out when I get there.
I remain convinced that the bicycle as we know it can continue to have a transformational effect on our socities and our cities, just as it has done for 125 years.
Remember, people rode bicycles sans motors in all of our cities for decades and decades. On bicycles heavier and clumsier than modern models. Their offspring can do the same today if infrastructure is put into place to keep them safe.
I believe in the bicycle. From a rational and historical perspective. The e-bike is a nice addition but despite what the e-bike industry tells you, it ain't the new sliced bread.
Those of us working towards creating more liveable cities should be well-versed in both sides of the coin and act based on that instead of blindly allowing the Hype Cloud to envelop us.
When I see Bosch and Shimano battery boxes piling up in basement from our modest sales I do worry about the legacy. Some people on forum are yet to buy a bike made this century (!)
Cycling is full of individual opinions as you say - what do others think on MCA and his associated Life Size City / Copenhagenize persona?
Posted 3 years ago # -
“
All I've done is questioned the Hype Cloud.“
Quite…
Posted 3 years ago # -
@laidback his latest stupid tweet is the worst sort of white male flat city privilege. seriously obnoxious and offensive.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Nice review!
Posted 3 years ago # -
@SRD - not seen it. Just came to the Copenhagen bridges story as a bit of light relief on the Life Size City site showing that even well respected cities have councils that make mistakes.
Site also has contributions from other cities which was interesting although I can see this thread isn't going down well (!)Posted 3 years ago # -
@Laidback, "Some people on forum are yet to buy a bike made this century (!)"
There's certainly something to be said for 1990s steel frames and durable six-speed drivetrains... :-)
As for the Hype Cloud, e-bikes definitely up there with the likes of gravel bikes in recent years, in terms of industry pushing product to consumers.
Tend to agree in one respect with MCA that an e-bike will be an option to consider if/when I'm too old and unfit to ride a solely human powered bike. Not there yet, I'm glad to say!
Posted 3 years ago # -
I watched the video - a couple of valid points about the design of the first bridge, but they are undermined by his overegging and conflating design issues with problems experienced during construction...plus the many, many people merrily cycling behind him mid rant. (I have cycled over the bridge in question, unfamiliar non-electric cargo bike, two kids in the front and managed it no problem).
On the more general issues raised - this guy had nothing to do with the development of Copenhagen as a cycling city. That is down to decades of hard work by planners, engineers, architects, politicians and cycling campaigners. I might as well go around berating other cities for not having a neo-classical Georgian new town.
His opposition to electric bikes is increasingly at odds with reality - they are safe, popular and attractive to people who do not normally cycle. Such opposition, combined with a focus on a certain type of city bike also raises the question "Is there a point where we hold up our hands and say "no more!" - this is the pinnacle of bike-ness, we will accept nothing else". Where do we draw that line? What if we had done that before say, indexed gears, kevlar lined tyres, LED lights. It's a clearly ridiculous position to take - bikes can always be improved.
Posted 3 years ago # -
the man positively delights in annoying people, and then whines about twitter.
he never misses an opportunity to be nasty about Amsterdam
he loves to justify his own lifestyle eg flying
better not to discuss the way his work depicts women
this was the tweet I meant - actually from 2018, he tweeted something similar recently:
Yeah. Some elderly aside, #eBikes are nothing more than #whitepriviledge gadgets for a middle-class with elitist aspirations - probably the laziest demographic in the history of homo sapiens. #getarealfuckingbike #elcykler #dktrp"
He seems to have concluded that e-bikes are the new lycra louts.
That said, he makes some good points about infra.
Posted 3 years ago # -
@SRD - yes searched out tweet and pleased to see first few answers from forumers. He got over 140 replies on that - obviously he'll be happy with that. WC said that dissing ebikes 'as cheating' has persuaded his dad to drive as he'll only use a #properbike or nothing! I still think that a cyclist will use anything with pedals so not sure about claims that e-bikes are converting motorists in significant numbers - much as I would like to. Wonder if there are stats?
@Morningsider - he might not be originator of Copenhagen improvements. (Jan Ghel, Morten Kabell https://bycs.org/lessons-from-a-cycling-city-with-morten-kabell/ and others take credit). He has worked on improving Central Station parking though recently with an architect. He's a mouthy front man that is probably effective at dealing with other men like him, women less so. He likes travel, expensive wine and clothes and spends time promoting Velorbis accessories and other made in Denmark cycling bling.
@crowriver - Getting onto e-bikes pros and cons is a good debate to have. When I cycled tandem with daughter up and down High Street I loved the fact it was a simple machine that was healthy and faster than bus. Had front and back panniers to do a shop etc. To anyone saying 'cycling is hard' I would say not really with right bike and gears, although I only knew of one other tandem convertee.
20 years later I still see Helios type tandems that are fine without assist. MCA wouldn't like tandems as too un-Danish! Tern GSD as used by @Dave would be hugely wrong, along with UAs - too Dutch and electric!!
The idea of dropping restrictions on EUUK e-bikes to limit to 25 kmph would also not go down well.
Lastly he has a point about where the e-bike journey ends. This summer my cousin was riding a 13kg Merida Sports e-bike to make up for knee injury. The industry wants to move away from utility e-bikes and try and make it an ingredient of sport. This is n+1 on steroids as many users will just buy 'cause it's there. Might not increase in numbers of cyclists just a swap of bike types. Expect junior sports e-bikes in next 10 years. Hope I'm wrong!Posted 3 years ago # -
I'll just leave this from MCA's twitter bio here (slightly bowdlerized):
"Putting the <rule 2> you back into urban design since 2007."
He's clearly a provocateur. The urbanists' Clarkson. Fine with me; the world is more entertaining with him getting in amongst it.
As for ebikes, perfectly fine with me (and even MCA agrees, twitter hyperbole aside).
They are manifestly not the most appropriate tool for all jobs. My personal rule of thumb would be if a rider is capable of doing the journey on a non e-bike without major difficulty it'll be cheaper/simpler/more exercise/more fun for them to do so.
Full disclosure: I have bought bikes made this century but not this decade. 8 speed and fixed forever!
Posted 3 years ago # -
Is MCA a more Twitter, I don’t do that so he rarely bothers me.
Posted 3 years ago # -
@LaidBack - regarding being sceptical of "converting motorists", scepticism is always appropriate to a degree, the thing to remember is that ebikes haven't been aimed at converting motorists, or at transforming people into cyclists, they're about making the bicycle attractive to people with no particular attachment to any form of travel who presently make a lot of use of a car because it's the most convenient option, and at making the bicycle a useful tool for people who don't want every journey to be full on sweaty exercise.
For people like myself who've been sedentary for quite a few years, ebikes are a gamechanger exactly because they are "cheating" - I don't have to spend the next year in hardcore training and weight loss just to get to the point I can ride it to the shops or up the town without arriving a mess, I can just put the assist on max and ride off. And if I do want exercise, the great thing about an ebike is that if you turn the assistance off it's just a bike(if anything it's better than a bike, since you're giving yourself extra punishment hauling the weight of the battery & motor system :P).
But I'm also not a "cyclist" - I own no lycra, my gear is not aero, I think drop bars are a wee bit silly if you're not in/training for a pro race, the thought of throwing myself down the side of a mountain horrifies me. But hey, now that I have a bike for everyday stuff, why not go for a nice ride along the prom or wherever for exercise? Might as well get some additional use out of it. And so now I have a better understanding of and a vested interest in seeing improved infrastructure, better traffic laws and enforcement, and ended up interested in urbanism in a way I wasn't before - if anything that's the ultimate repudiation of what MCA says: the only reason I know he exists to hear his whinging that ebikes are a thing is because ebikes are a thing.
Posted 3 years ago # -
In a flat city such a# Copenhagen the need for An e-bike is reduced? However MCA acknowledges the e-bike allows for an extended commute. You can live better further away from the city cente. Also for. The elderly.
I think despite all his protestations he is e-bike curious
Posted 3 years ago # -
“And so now I have a better understanding of and a vested interest in seeing improved infrastructure, better traffic laws and enforcement, and ended up interested in urbanism in a way I wasn't before“
Great to read (and previous bit).
How did you come think you wanted an electric bike?
“they're about making the bicycle attractive to people with no particular attachment to any form of travel”
This is an interesting observation. I’m not sure there is any uniform thinking about it in the bicycle industry. To a large extent it will just be a new product with the prospect of new markets/consumers. The bonus of higher prices can mean more profits.
There’s certainly no common understanding among ‘cyclists’ (let’s not define that too closely…) or campaigners (hence views in this thread!).
‘Electric bikes is cheating’ is one element of the problem about why more people don’t ride electric bikes. Though the craze for electric scooters shows there’s no ‘purity’ about getting about using muscles!
DON’T FORGET: “Edinburgh’s too hilly for cycling”.
EDINBURGH should have more electric bikes than anywhere else.
It’s a UK problem. The UK is undoubtedly still obsessed with “the great car economy” a part of which is the ‘need’ for infrastructure (more/upgraded roads and ‘parking outside my house’).
SO more encouragement for electric bikes is needed - AND UK manufacturing.
Not forgetting -
“
“
All about hills then…
That said, there are undoubtedly issues about batteries and mining and recycling. INSIGNIFICANT compared with cars. Motor manufacturers are (probably) taking ‘the circular economy’ seriously - and continuing the success of making Govs pay for infrastructure for driving…
Posted 3 years ago # -
@chdot Regarding the observation - that just seemed to be the consensus to me finding various youtubers, campaigners etc around "utility" bicycling & urbanism, the idea that most people aren't really "ists" of any sort, they just want to get where they're going and will use whatever works to do that. It seems a concept that's well bedded-in in terms of infrastructure/perceived safety, and the logic naturally extends to concerns like "But I can't carry all the stuff/weight I want/need to on a bicycle", "But I don't work in a fancy office with showers and changing rooms", "But I can't fit my wee kids on a bicycle", "But I'm not fit enough", and yes, "But it's too hilly where I live" since ebikes or ecargos address those concerns, and the more you can address the reasons people think a bike can't meet their needs the more likely they are to leave the car at home.
Which leads into why I decided I wanted an ebike - it addresses those concerns for me(not fit enough to use a regular bike without arriving a sweaty mess, transporting stuff - with the aid of a nice wee trailer), and so I found it easier to justify buying a bike again(last attempt was 15 years ago at a much fitter 20 years old, and didn't go anywhere as I almost immediately took a header over the bars due to a pothole that totalled the bike), because it wouldn't just be a "toy" for exercise but also a tool that I could use right away at pretty much its full potential.
Even then it was only the Energy Savings Trust loan scheme that made it practical to buy one, and it was pure luck I ran across someone talking about that on twitter, so that's a concern I think definitely needs to be addressed to make them more accessible to more people.
Posted 3 years ago # -
slightly off topic...
Last September, my work building implemented a one way system. in particular, one staircase was up and one was down. It was inconvenient and made me walk a lot further lugging heavy panniers etc. BUt after a year I got so routinised that even though they've removed the one way system, I still automatically go that way, even though it is longer and inconvenient.
Made me think about how difficult it is to change travel routes, modes etc.
Posted 3 years ago # -
The UK bike market is quite "sports" obsessed which is annoying for those of us who want practical non-sporting equipment (be that an ebike or components that became "obsolete" 20 years ago). This might help to explain the lower sales of e-bikes here.
I'd also be quite interested in use (rather than sale) statistics for all those ebikes - I see more than I used to around Edinburgh but they're not a common sight even now. Does anyone have such statistics? Couldn't find any with a cursory google.
Similarly whether e-bikes tend to convert pedestrians->e-cyclists (the Yodhrin pathway), cyclists->e-cyclists (such as older riders looking for a boost) or motorists->e-cyclists. I suspect MCA-aligned urbanists would only be interested in promoting the latter.
Posted 3 years ago # -
@SRD, "He seems to have concluded that e-bikes are the new lycra louts."
I rather thought he was inferring that e-bikes are the new Volvo estate (or whatever the more recent middle class totemic vehicle is).
Anecdotally this is somewhat corroborated by an FB group I subscribe to which is about family cycling and transporting kids on two wheels. There are a few hardy souls persevering with child seats, tandems, etc. under their own steam. However many of the posts are from folk in London or the south east of England who own several grand's worth of e-assist cargo bikes/trikes made by Dutch or Danish manufacturers. Which I think is great, but there is a "my other Volvo is a bakfiets" vibe about the whole thing. As with cars, there's the issue of where to park/store these large cycles. Without communal covered bike storage on every street then this type of transport is the preserve of those with gardens or garages. Of course, it's "socially acceptable" (not to me but I'm not typical) and relatively secure to store your motor vehicle directly on the street, but it would take a brave person to do that with a cargo bike/trike...
So while MCA was a bit too abrasive, I kinda see his point. Even though I am very much in favour of parents doing the nursery/primary school run with a cargo bike instead of a car, yes also with e-assist - indeed that's one of the best uses I can think of for the tech.
Posted 3 years ago # -
@MediumDave Well to be fair, it didn't so much convert me from a pedestrian to an e-cyclist as it did convert me from a couch potato to an e-cyclist. For example, I didn't have a car to offset, but I now do most of my shopping by bike & trailer rather than having it delivered.
The issue with "MCA-aligned urbanists" is they seem to have a pretty narrow perspective - not having a car doesn't mean you don't do things that cause pollution which having an ebike allows you to avoid; a "proper" pedestrian > ebike conversion may not be "optimal", but plenty of mostly-pedestrians are as hostile towards cycling and cycle infrastructure as the most I Can't Believe It's Not Cabbie-tier car drivers, so getting them riding around can make them allies in making cities more liveable generally; there's the public health angle to be considered as well in that while an ebike might not do you quite as much good as a "proper" bicycle mile-for-mile, it lets you tackle trips you'd have previously either avoided or done by bus/taxi/rideshare, and I'd wager cycling out to for eg Hermiston Gait to pick up some bits for a project from B&Q will be more exercise than the ~2 minutes of walking required to move between bus stops to take that same journey the way I would have before(had I not just ordered online and never set foot outside at all).
I've even seen some people arguing - though I can't speak to how true it is - that ebikes are more energy efficient than regular bikes once you consider what's necessary to create the calories a human inefficiently burns to drive it.
My point being, in the end, they seem more like they want to preserve a sense of superiority they feel than they actually are about a considered and holistic approach to urban living.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Mr fimm read an article (I assume on an Austrian news website) that claimed the 20% of the population of Austria owns an e-bike. Not 20% of people in Austria who own a bike own an e-bike, but 20% of the total population. He checked this very carefully because he found it surprising.
His mother has an e-bike, and was a relatively early adopter - there's a really steep hill from his parents' house up to the village and she could no longer get up it. So he's a fan in that context; but he will rant about (apparently) fit men on e-mountainbikes riding up things that they appear perfectly capable of getting up without the assistance.
Posted 3 years ago # -
“a considered and holistic approach to urban living“
Exactly what’s needed.
I’m sure some of ‘us’ (including me, at times) don’t consider enough other factors/people enough. Some bike riders still under appreciate/disregard pedestrian needs/conditions.
The basics remain - over provision/privilege for people who can afford/choose to drive.
Need less traffic ‘better behaved’ drivers and much better provisions for people who walk and cycle (and those who can’t)
Posted 3 years ago # -
@fimm in 2014 my gf and I took a wrong turn near Kitzbuhel and ended up starting the ride up the Kitzbuhler Horn. Our gas-pipe-adjacent hire bikes from Munich (or the engines for that matter) were not remotely up to this challenge!
Before we bailed, various Austrian e-grannys and e-grandads cruised past us with blithe ease!
Like Mr C said: "E's are good". I think he was talking about bikes?
Anyway, definitely plenty of e-bikes in Austria even then, plus waymarked routes, usually a loop from a village taking in several bars/restaurants, rather than A to B.
Posted 3 years ago # -
Research from the Netherlands found that e-bikes do produce modal shift from car to e-bike (see Modal shift implications of e-bike use in the Netherlands: Moving towards sustainability?) and that existing cyclists who buy an e-bike actually double the distance they cycle (see Do people who buy e-bikes cycle more?).
Posted 3 years ago # -
I think cost is still the major factor with e-bike popularity in the UK. Most non-cyclists consider anything beyond a couple of hundred pounds on a bike to be extortionate as their experience is based largely on what's available in Halfords. £2K+ is a large outlay especially on something you might not take to. "You could buy a car for that" would be the response from most.
There's also an issue with how to securely store them, particularly in densely populated areas?
Posted 3 years ago # -
@yodhrin yours is an interesting experience tale
Some urbanists seem to prioritise transit and pedestrians above other active travel modes. So a conversion from transit/pedestrian to cycling isn't exactly a "win" from that perspective. Personally I belong to the "anything that's not a private car is good" school but given the cost of e-bikes I worry that some people are being sold something they don't really need.
Having read a bit more of MCAs comments on e-bikes last night a large part of his beef appears to be specific to Denmark where there's an established low-speed utility cycling culture with design guidelines for infrastructure to suit. Allowing faster and heavier e-bikes (particularly s-pedelecs) to use the infrastructure apparently causes issues. How much those issues are perceptual and how much real is difficult to determine. Twitter of course reduces this to asinine soundbites of the "e-bikes bad/lazy" variety.
I don't think the UK cycling culture is at a stage where we'd have that kind of problem. Quite the opposite; on my very occasional outings on an Urban Arrow the drivers appear to believe that I would make quite a large and expensive dent in their motor if they got up to their usual tricks. Which is just as well as here was no way I am willing to shoehorn the UA into any of the "cycle lanes" on my route. Trying the same routes on a Christiana trike or 8-freight might have been less pleasant.
Posted 3 years ago # -
I used to have a 35 mile round trip commute which I did before ebikes were a thing, at the same time that my better half was doing a 20 mile round trip commute..
I don't have a lot of patience for this debate, as people are saying the key thing we need is to increase the number of people who think any kind of cycling is normal/acceptable. If you look at what people are paying for car finance, modest ebikes are extremely affordable.
Posted 3 years ago #
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