CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Meadows to Innocent cycle route

(72 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from chdot
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  1. chdot
    Admin

    The potential for using Gifford Park and Rankeillor Street has been mentioned on another thread.

    At present it's blocked by a railing and hampered by the wheelie bins (check area on Google StreetView).

    It really shouldn't be difficult to get the railings removed (but This Is Edinburgh). Obviously some measures will need to be taken to reduce cycle/pedestrian conflict. This would probably involve the nasty chicane barriers that cyclists hate - but they do a job.

    Cycle routes that cross pavements already exist in Edinburgh - e.g. Raeburn Place (no barriers but much better sight lines).

    The pavement in Clerk Street is not particularly wide so a build-out where people on bikes would wait for a gap in the traffic would be a good idea. It would also make it possible for some of the wheelie bins to be positioned to the north of this.

    This would be in the current bus lane, which would have to be moved further out into the carriageway. Clerk Street is significantly wider than South Bridge so that needn't be a problem...

    Obviously making all the pavements in Clerk Street wider would re-balance the space between pedestrians and vehicles and probably re-vitalise the 'local shopping experience' - but This Is Edinburgh...

    At present there is a pedestrian crossing to the south of Gifford Park/Rankeillor Street. This stops the traffic periodically. Technically the lights could also be triggered by bicycle detectors in Gifford Park and Rankeillor Street.

    Perhaps CEC could innovate with a wireless connection between the detectors and the crossing controls(???)

    What would be even more adventurous (and be of use to pedestrians, bus users and cyclists) would be an additional crossing to the north of Gifford Park/Rankeillor Street which would operate in unison with the existing crossing.

    This would have almost no effect on vehicle traffic flow (which is what tends to concern planners/engineers/bus companies) but a positive effect on cyclists using the Gifford Park/Rankeillor Street route.

    A 'final' improvement would be to make Rankeillor Street one way to motor vehicles (west to east) further improving the crossing for cyclists.

    After some or all of this is done, attention could be paid to Buccleuch Street and St. Leonards Street.

    If/when the site at the end of Lochrin Place is built on there will be (?) a new link to the Canal which would avoid the Gilmore Place/Kings junction (though re-doing the signal phases here would improve things for cyclists).

    SO one day there might be a decent cycle route (mostly off-road) across the centre of Edinburgh that would attract all ages and most abilities.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    THE CHEAP SOLUTION -

    12 cuts with an angle grinder.


    'All' the council has to do is remove the section by the trainers and the one two along.

    Then put arrow and no entry signs on both sides of the remaining centre section of railing.

    Add a broken white line at the top of Gifford Park.

    What could be simpler???

    Bit of tar by the kerb until they can produce the build out.

    Do bikes go on the pavement there already?

    Well I didn't have to wait for this one -


    Posted 13 years ago #
  3. wingpig
    Member

    As the lumpiness of the path between MMW and Buccleuch St and the hassle of joining traffic into Buccleuch St then the hassle of turning right into Gifford Park then the faff of dismounting to get onto the road or cross over to Rankeillor St and the cobbles on St Leonard's Lane generally makes me choose Melville Drive, Hope Park Terrace, Bernard Terrace and Hermit's Croft as a Meadows-Innocent route I generally forget that Gifford Park is there unless on foot, though heading up Boroughloch (despite the cobbles) means an easier and less view-impaired jaunt across Buccleuch St. Even if the Quality Bike Corridor improves the existing NCN-signed junction I'd probably still forget to use them, though it'd be better for out-of-towners if the routing they were following didn't look so much like an afterthought.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    Apparently the Gifford Park route is being looked at as part of the "family network" in the ATAP - for 2012/3...

    Posted 13 years ago #
  5. Min
    Member

    "Well I didn't have to wait for this one -"

    He appears to be wearing Anth's jacket!

    I normally just turn right on to Buccleuch Street and then left and down to the Innocent that way but getting across Buccleuch Street is really difficult as there is so much traffic.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "but getting across Buccleuch Street is really difficult as there is so much traffic"

    Often, yes - needs a way of triggering the pedestrian lights.

    And a redesign of the road layout - plenty of space.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  7. DaveC
    Member

    I know its not direct but if you ride up boroughloch lane to Buccleuch Street you could cross at the pedestrian lights opp Coyaba.

    I know what you mean though, moving that Pedestrian crossing down to the exit of the meddows north of the playpark so you could cross and go up Gifford Park. wpuld help. Then another crossing to Rankeillor Street would make sense. The crossing from Gifford Park to Rankeillor Street would idealy need a set of lights but that would be expensive and probably not used.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  8. Coyaba closed a couple of years ago I think?

    I realise this has no bearing on the proposed routing between the Meadows and the Innocent but... ;)

    Posted 13 years ago #
  9. DaveC
    Member

    Yeh sorry, having a family and being forced out of the Smoke (due to the need for an affordable home with garden etc..) means I'm stuck with browsing Google Street view for local ref points.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  10. :D

    Pity really, was a pretty good restaurant.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  11. wingpig
    Member

    Ital soup. Nom. Still not found anywhere local which does curry goat, though I haven't really been searching intensely.

    I can't remember without StreetViewing (which doesn't work at work) which way the no-turn-into signs on Montague and Rankeillor Streets from Clerk Street opeat, but might it technically be illegal (unless cycles are exempt from the no-right-turn thing) to turn right out of Gifford Park to get to the crossing to press the button to get traffic along Clerk Street to stop in order to re-mount just north of the crossing to head down Rankeillor (through the stopped traffic heading south on Clerk Street) by effectively turning right?

    Posted 13 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    we do a mean goat curry. can pass on recipe. hard to get goat up here though. one source (RB on Nicholson) closed.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  13. LaidBack
    Member

    In the interim could West Crosscauseway also not be made two way (access only) and that way bike crossings could be used in both directions on a route that already exists? Think there was a move to use this street a bit more inventively anyway.

    The only missing bit on this is the need for a crossing / road engineering on Buccleuch St to aid a right turn? The answer is maybe to move the existing lights up a bit. Space to get in central reservation - traffic would maybe have to slow down too which would be good thing.

    I know the street surfaces leave a lot to be desired in places but the lights are there on Clerk St and the Pleasance... Also you have the Pleasance Medical Centre, Tescos, Liddl, Backbeat Records...

    I use the reverse of this route all the time. You generally have very good sight lines when making a right turn into Meadows lane or Burroughloch.

    The other non official NCN way is to open up the pend through St Patricks Square which is adjacent to the existing traffic lights. Like the Gifford Park one this just needs hole in railings and dropped kerb. Round the corner we'd need to move one set of lights to stop traffic early or a box junction could be handy to extend the reach of traffic lights as currently positioned. This works very well on Nicolson Square into Nicolson St where it's generally easy to make a right turn.

    I am not advocating that we should have off road / protected crossings everywhere but if we can link substantial paths like the Meadows then it does open it up for the less confident and often younger cyclist. We are in effect talking about how we should cross the A7.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "In the interim could West Crosscauseway also not be made two way (access only)"

    Suspect this would require a TRO (as will aspects of changes around Gifford Park/Rankeillor Street) so not "interim" - as in 'easy to do quickly'

    "Think there was a move to use this street a bit more inventively anyway."

    Yes -

    http://www.thecausey.org

    but no sign of anything happening soon.

    Posted 13 years ago #
  15. Iratesheep
    Member

    resurrecting this thread, after the leaflet I received through front door today.

    No direct link yet, sorry, in fact a Google search revealed only this thread.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    I have seen some earlier plans for this. Very interested to see what they are circulating.

    Great improvement in some ways - especially Gifford park and rankeillor st - but I'm wary of the use of shared use pavements.

    I gather there may be Segregation on Hope Park Terrace?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. Dave
    Member

    Looks great to me.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  19. fimm
    Member

    I have not been through it in any detail, but the thing that rings bells to me is that they are not proposing to reduce the amount of parking or loading space and we all know how good that has been on the Low Quality Bike Corridor... what's the parking like on these streets at the moment?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I can't get into the Dropbox link from work, but with Melville Drive to Preston Street the main through route for vehicle traffic I assume that something fairly high quality with cyclist priority can be run along Rankeillor / Gifford Park.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  21. fimm
    Member

    It doesn't look "high quality with cyclist priority" to me, though. It looks like "you can cycle on the pavement because we can't possibly take away any parking spaces from the important people round here".

    Posted 10 years ago #
  22. wingpig
    Member

    The main thing about this is that new/unconfident/slow/wobbly cyclists get to go on the footways on Buccleuch and St. Leonard's Streets. They won't have to make a right turn down Bernard Terrace after emerging from Hermit's Croft or move out into the road (with oncoming traffic concealed behind Brazilian Sensation) to turn right onto NMW from Buccleuch Street, nor go across the road to turn right into Gifford Park, nor rely on the goodwill of approching traffic to give them a chance of emerging from Rankeillor Street. People heading down Buccleuch Street will find it easier to get onto NMW; similarly it'll be possible to escape to the footway early if heading south up St. Leonard's Street. Hopefully this will be enough to encourage them to not be perturbed by Rankeillor Street or Gifford Park.

    It's not a whizz-through solution for existing/confident/hurrisome cyclists, though depending on the priorisation/immediacy of the toucan crossings it could well end up being faster than any of the exiting on-road options.

    The shared-use sections could do with slightly expanding in the opposite directions (with a west-side-of-the-Bruntsfield-Place-crossing-to-Leamington-Walk-style ramplet) to allow people heading north up Causewayside or north down St. Leonard's Street to be able to use the new bits to get to NMW and the Innocent respectively slightly more easily (without, for example, having the current hassle of having the glare at traffic coming behind to persuade it to not mow you down in order to squeeze through before the traffic-island pinch-point on Hope Park Thingby whilst you slow down to turn left onto NMW).

    Posted 10 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "I assume that something fairly high quality with cyclist priority"

    Where's your tongue?

    At least Finn is able to see the plans...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  24. SRD
    Moderator

    Seems pretty clear that they don't think they can 'sell' anything that removes parking/loading.
    The change at the rankeillor st intersection and moving the bus stop are presumably seen as 'unpopular' so need to be balanced by being non-interventionist elsewhere.

    They're gambling that Gifford park and rankeillor are quiet enough that they don't need 'infra' except at intersections. I said that I didn't think parents who don't normally let their kids ride on the street would feel able to change that on those streets. But who knows. The street crossings are certainly much improved.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  25. fimm
    Member

    Hmm, OK. I guess I'm not the kind of cyclist that it is aimed at. I'm also in an obstreperous mood today.

    I'm fiMM, by the way. Its kind of my initials. Every so often someone sees finn, I'm not sure why...

    Posted 10 years ago #
  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Will it pass the "let a 5-year old cycle on it" test?

    The current set-up, most folk would answer no I am sure. How about the new proposal?

    (I ask this of the owner-operators of childlers of the forum, having neither ownership or operating licence of one myself)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "Will it pass the "let a 5-year old cycle on it" test?"

    I think the CEC notion was 8-80.

    Possibly more at the younger end for 'unaccompanied'.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  28. Klaxon
    Member

    Ok, so let's assume Rankeilor St to be 4 car widths wide (2 parking 2 road circulation)

    The council have signalled that they'll close off one end but keep 2 way traffic. That actually requires an increase in circulation space.

    How about this:

    One way traffic (exit at Clerk St, per status quo)
    End on acutely angled parking on on south side, adjacent to westbound general traffic lane
    Eastbound protected cycle contraflow

    Might end up with more parking spaces than currently, and an increase in cycle space?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  29. Klaxon
    Member

    Something like this

    Posted 10 years ago #
  30. cc
    Member

    @klaxon I wouldn't like that because you'd have through traffic going along the road. One of the best and simplest ways of making a street safer for cycling on is to stop it being a through route for motor vehicles.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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