CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Threatened with the cops

(31 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by ruggtomcat
  • Latest reply from Dave
  • poll: What should I do?
    Turn myself in : (4 votes)
    20 %
    Report the man for harassment : (4 votes)
    20 %
    Collect a days worth of illegal cyclists : (0 votes)
    all of the above : (0 votes)
    Leave it, its not worth it : (10 votes)
    50 %
    Contact the CTC : (2 votes)
    10 %

    20 votes


12

  1. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Ok I put my hands up, I was cycling on the promenade at a little over walking pace about 3pm today.

    A man took my photograph and said 'Im reporting you to the cops' I stopped to talk with him, mentioning the fact the route is regularly used by many cyclists and the rule is only enforced in cases of dangerous cycing. He informed me otherwise and said he was a QC, he then threatened me with £150 fine and confiscation of my bicycle. This caused me some distress.

    Our conversation continued but its not really important (accusations of being a dangerous cyclist, red light jumper etc) as I am now very worried about the future of my bike!

    I also observed him doing the same thing to another passing (slow and considerate) cyclist.

    I see this as a clear case of harassment, I can take photos of cyclists all day long on the prom and take a heafty collection to the police. Will they persue any of them? I dont think so or there would have already been a crackdown. The man was obviously using his position and the threat of prosecution to bully and scare cyclists.

    So what should I do about this? Note I have had no contact with the police yet.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. steveo
    Member

    I'd like to say report the moron for harassment but tbh its not worth it. Just ignore him, your photo isn't enough for the police to reasonably go on even if he did find a jobs worth to chase it up.

    Flash mob any one?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. wingpig
    Member

    Hmmm.

    Fortunately, as a result of the many harrassments of photographers in recent years the definition of what might constitute harrassment was mentioned in the UK Photographers' Rights Guide and implies that deliberately hassling someone with a camera could conceivably be interpreted as a breach of the peace, especially if they're using the camera threateningly, as here. Worth bearing in mind and perhaps mentioning if anything happens.

    I expect the police (if he pops into the station with his camera to show them the pictures) would pretend to humour him, say "yes, we'll do something about it yeronner and increase foot patrols in the area" and roll their eyes behind his back. Otherwise, the police have been spotted cycling along the prom at a little over walking pace; granted, just because the police can be spotted driving along Melville Drive at fifty it doesn't mean anyone else can, but it does (along with popular press coverage of the whole permission-to-cycle signage by-law argument which is all the public generally have to go on unless they research the matter) imply that cycling at walking pace is something the police aren't bothered about.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Er, he's a QC? How exactly can he then levy a £150 fine and take your bike? He's talking out of his hat - trust me, even if it was the police who had stopped you there is nothing anywhere that will give them the authority to take the bike (unless it is causing an obstruction).

    Either he is a QC with delusions of grandeur and a grudge against cyclists who thinks that his position will intimidate people, or he's not a a QC and is just trying it on to try and scare people.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Just for completeness a QC is an advocate (barrister south of the border) and has no authority to prosecute. Hell, if he is a QC he might not even be a QC that specialises in criminal cases.

    For clarity I'll say again, he's talking out of his hat.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Since when did being a QC give you the power to hand out on-the street sentences of a fine and having your bike impounded? It's just a type of lawyer isn't it? I honestly think it's more likely that the guy is a bit deluded and has been watching too much courtroom dramas.

    It would be interesting to report to the police just to find out if being sent photos by an anti-cycling vigilante is something they'd take any action about.

    A very slow and very corteous flashmob would be all the awesome.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Jackson Priest
    Member

    Well that's decided my route home.

    (Will try to remember not to jump all the red lights on the prom.)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. Arellcat
    Moderator

    A very slow and very courteous flashmob would be awesome.

    Perhaps every SLR-toting cyclist should seek to take a photograph of this fine upstanding member of the community. Besides, you can't very well compose a good shot if you're simultanously barrelling along at 25mph and knocking down pedestrians.

    Why is cycling permitted on Cramond Promenade and Brighton Promenade and Morecambe Promenade, but somehow not Portobello?

    Edit: Wingpig, that's a very useful little document you linked to. Copy duly sent to the printer.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. ExcitableBoy
    Member

    I have ridden past police on the prom many times and never even been asked to get off my bike. I cannot for one minute believe that anybody could be fined without a general, prior notice being given, of a change in the management of cycling on the prom.
    If it had happened to me, I would no doubt have felt as concerned as you do (being an upstanding, law abiding, goody-goody) and popped down to the police station to see what they had to say.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. tammytroot
    Member

    Flashing. Count me in.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. Nelly
    Member

    Interesting - When I first got my sons bike, my parents regularly took him down the prom for a wee spin on the days they took him - going by this alleged QC's warped rationale, that either makes my parents (as the responsible adults) lawbreakers - or (even more funny) my son was a crook when he was 3 years old, the shame of it !

    I would have relished the day in court frankly !!!!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Dave
    Member

    This sort of stuff never happens to me, which is unfortunate as I would dearly love to offer to pose dynamically on my bike... saying "while you may be photographing me, I'm *videoing* you... with sound!"

    I was under the impression for some reason that it wasn't actually illegal to cycle on the prom, because nobody had ever actually made a law against it - only stuck up some signs.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    That's a really miserable thing to happen. He's probably had some sort of run-in with a cyclist and then brooded over it to such an extent that he's come up with some sort of mad plan to get his own back.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. ruggtomcat
    Member

    Thanks guys, it really shook me up. I think I let him get to me too much, I shoulda just given him a smile and cycled on.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. recombodna
    Member

    "Either he is a QC with delusions of grandeur and a grudge against cyclists who thinks that his position will intimidate people, or he's not a a QC and is just trying it on to try and scare people."

    OR he's just drank a bottle of QC........

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. spytefear
    Member

    Nutter
    I'd say it's a deinite GO for a mob

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Dave, as far as I'm aware the Porty Prom is actually one of the 'no cycling' bits that was done properly (i.e. it actually has a traffic regulation issued).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    A Porty resident who has been active in local groups for years has sent me this -

    "
    Best ignored - politely. Considerate cycling IS largely tolerated, in
    my experience.

    I have no idea who this 'QC' might be.
    "

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "as far as I'm aware the Porty Prom is actually one of the 'no cycling' bits that was done properly"

    I'm think that is the case, it's a "road" - like MMW where (obviously) cycling is allowed (it wasn't always so...)

    "The reference is to Conservative councillor (at that time), Ralph Brereton, who claimed that a cycle route along Middle Meadow Walk would be “over my dead body”. He later apologised and it was created while he was still on Edinburgh Corporation."

    This was an early Spokes success.

    Porty Prom is taking longer, because (perhaps) CEC and local councillors don't want to stir up the local (vocal) minority.

    As long as QCs (real or self-imagined) outnumber irresponsible persons on bicycles things will be fine.

    Of course CEC could stop renewing the signs. Then people might think they no longer apply - bit like all the fading red ASL surfaces, ah, oh...

    This is probably the legal bit, but -

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    I'd be interested to know the route the cyclefuzz took to get there from North Meadow Walk.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. Dave
    Member

    Anth - Porty council don't even think there's a legal basis, from what I can tell. For example, take a look at these minutes.

    "270.8 Cycling on the Promenade

    An exchange of letters in the Evening News and a response from cyclists had brought this to the forefront again ... The police view is that there are no by-laws but charges can be made e.g. if someone is knocked down."

    Since you can be charged for knocking someone down anywhere, they're explicitly saying that the no cycling signs are themselves a barefaced lie.

    Which is what you'd expect really.

    I took some video of the prom yesterday rush hour for my rendezvous with ruggtomcat, so hopefully I'll be able to put up a wee vid of me terrorising the populace.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Dave, thanks for posting that link. I've read through all Portobello Community Council's minutes from January 2010 to the present, and although there were a host of suggestions made in April 2010 about improving the community aspect of travel and reducing the impact of increasing car ownership and use, there is nothing - not even in the Police contributions - about cyclists on the Promenade, polite or otherwise.

    PCC is actually generally pro-cycling, having made the recommendation more than once to install cycle racks in place of bollards, when the case is made for the latter as part of traffic routing.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Interestingly Edinburgh Council itself says you can cycle on the prom...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Ooh, that's just the ticket, Anth.

    This forum is unstoppable! :-D

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. Dave
    Member

    @anth - also seems to settle "The Jawbone Question", doesn't it?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    Well done Anth.

    SO - was that put on CEC site before or after last time signs were renewed??

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So we all print and laminate a copy of that for our wallets and head out for a wee spin along the prom at a "safe speed and give way to walkers".

    sorted?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. Dave
    Member

    It's sad / funny that eventually it always boils down to the exact same thing that happens on the open road -

    It's always possible to be prosecuted for dangerous or careless cycling (or ultimately manslaughter) and pedestrians have, in theory if less often in practice, right of way over all traffic on a "proper" road too.

    If you look at it in this way, it's quite bizarre when people say "well, we're allowing cycling but only if they don't run people over". Well, d'oh - like that's a restriction that doesn't apply anywhere else!

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. Arellcat
    Moderator

    was that put on CEC site before or after last time signs were renewed?

    Well looking at the metadata of the webpage, you find this:

    <meta name="DC.date.modified" scheme="DCTERMS.W3CDTF" content="2010-12-01"/>
    <meta name="DC.rights.copyright" content="© Copyright 2010 The City of Edinburgh Council"/>

    but I can't easily tell whether that relates to the page redesign or the actual content.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. mgj
    Member

    On the basis that the freedom to roam legislation applies, access will be restricted to those parts of the Meadows (Whitehouse Loan to Marchmont Road) that form part of a golf course...

    Posted 13 years ago #

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