the other day I was crossing Waterloo Place and noticed in the cobbles at the crossing that there is what looked like about 5 yards of old tram line that was never dug up. Never spotted it before. (on the south side of the road - traffic heading west)
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
length of old tram line never dug up???
(44 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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I think it's the only preserved section from when the trams were cable hauled. I'm not sure if it's in situ or not.
Posted 12 years ago # -
There are some in left in Glasgow. A biggish section between Victoria bridge and Jamaica St on the north side of the river. More beside the SECC. There used to be some beside warehouses further west but that was lost when they accidentally burnt down prior to redevelopment.
A section of Woodlands Rd falls down because the tram tracks weren't removed properly nearly 50 years ago.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
In 1922 Edinburgh Corporation decided to convert the entire system to electric traction. The last cable tram operated in June 1923. A short section of cable track can still be seen in Waterloo Place.
"
http://www.edinburghtrams.com/index.php/story_so_far/view_details/4I bet that conversion was done more efficiently than the current shambles.
Probably didn't involve as many lawyers -
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/City-poised-to-sue-lawyers.6775907.jp
Posted 12 years ago # -
Suing lawyers sounds terribly expensive..
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Suing lawyers sounds terribly expensive.."
Yes, and is almost certainly covered by the maxim "when you're in a hole..."
This story - and the fact that it's only a 'maybe' - is just another example of questionable (in)decision(s).
Posted 12 years ago # -
K'nikky - good link, nice to see cyclist stopped at the cable car track on Waterloo Place. Also very nice ornamental stump from Granton
Posted 12 years ago # -
Edinburgh Tram Routes 1924
http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_edin_t_map/1_edinburgh_transport_maps_-_trams_1924_0_whole_map.htm
Posted 12 years ago # -
CHdot excellento link to Granton Historical Society - Tram all the way from Granton to Colinton and also Fairmilehead. HOw astonishing that the car could take over so supremely and maybe that it has now peaked.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"HOw astonishing that the car could take over so supremely"
Well it didn't quite happen like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal
here, but it must have had an influence.
'What America does, Britain does 20 years later'.
Though predicting the next future is another matter -
"t's not difficult to predict how our transport infrastructure will look in 25 years' time – it can take decades to construct a high-speed rail line or a motorway, so we know now what's in store. But there will be radical changes in how we think about transport. The technology of information and communication networks is changing rapidly and internet and mobile developments are helping make our journeys more seamless."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/jan/02/25-predictions-25-years
Posted 12 years ago # -
HOw astonishing that the car could take over so supremely and maybe that it has now peaked.
It's quite clear that the takeover of cars had a lot to do with private business interests. Not only the vehicle manufacturers themselves, who obviously wanted to sell more cars (and get people to buy new ones every few years); the road haulage industry wanted freight off the rails to increase their income and profits; but also the construction industry needed roads, motorways and bridges to be built and maintained. Notoriously, Ernest Marples, UK transport minister in the late 1950s/early 1960s, was the owner of a major construction company which was awarded the contract to build the M1 by his own ministry! A Tory, of course...
The then nationalised railways, and municipally owned tram networks presumably could not supply enough profit for manufacturers and builders. Trains and trams tend to last a very long time compared to cars.
Edinburgh was a Conservative controlled council until the 1980s, so I imagine some business interests may have had a hand in the ripping up of Edinburgh's tram network in the 1950s.
Of course the rise of cars was not solely attributable to these vested interests, but they had and continue to have a significant role in promoting and maintaining the system of transport we have today. If half their customers got rid of their cars and bought bicycles instead, it would hardly be in their interest.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Edinburgh was a Conservative controlled council until the 1980s"
Not entirely.
Labour ruled for part of the 70s - notably Lothian Regional Council which opened railway stations and created quite a lot of the cycle network.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_District_Council#Former_local_government
Posted 12 years ago # -
Edinburgh was a Conservative controlled council until the 1980s,
The same thing happened in Glasgow so I'm not sure how political allegiances mattered.
We also have a motorway right though the middle of town and should have had another heading off to Springburn, the off ramp to connect it is there on the outside lane of the west bound side near Port Dundas.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Presume it was planned to fill in the rest of the canal.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The line looks right for that, I'd never seen an aerial view of it.
You can almost see how the east bound ramp might sweep in as well but there is none of it in place. Wiki has a piece on the Bruce report which says that ramp was supposed to go to Maryhill.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Small section visible -
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&q=55.870299,-4.259858%20%28Glasgow,%20Glasgow%20City%20G4%200DF%29
Posted 12 years ago # -
@wfb The same thing happened in Glasgow so I'm not sure how political allegiances mattered.
Presumably Glasgow Labour were in the pockets of the builders too! In any case, Glasgow had and still has an underground and a huge network of heavy rail, so the impact of losing trams was likely much less.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The main through-route south of the eastern side of the Glasgow Inner Ring Road also comes to a rather abrupt halt, with all the traffic being shoved onto what would've been the northbound side.
There's a great "if only" map on Pathetic Motorways. The route north would've been about here and looks like it would've used the alignment of Craighall Road, although David Miller says that the frenzy of urban motorway building neatly coincided with the closure of the canals.
The ski jump roads of the south part of the Ring Road are still there, too.
Posted 12 years ago # -
So politicians of red and blue were getting back handers? Nothing changed here then. In Glasgow it's been formalised into Arms Length Organisations, ALEOs.One of the first is Sport and Leisure run by a Mrs Bridget McConnell. You may be aware of her husband.
The Subway lost business when areas on the south side were knocked down. It's fairly busy between the city and the west end (and Govan on every second Saturday).
I don't know how the suburban rail compares with Edinburgh but large sections of it were cleared in the '60s. It never dealt with the post war schemes very well. One section has been reinstated in the last 20 years.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I don't know how the suburban rail compares with Edinburgh"
Very well!!
Most is cycle path apart from the South Sub which is STILL freight only.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Apparently the new M74 extension doesn't follow the original planned route. I guess that's why the ski jumps are still there and not connected to anything.
The north-south eastern side of the box would have required demolition of some of the oldest parts of town or perhaps they just ran out of money.
There is a lot of road building going on related to the M74 and some seems to be for the Commonwealth games or being done with that as an excuse.
The council are putting in some shared use paths from the river up to Parkhead where the velodrome will be, indeed the velodrome looks fairly well advanced. I don't plan to use the shared use path so I haven't spent much time investigating it. I think it will link to the Sustrans 75.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Ahhh, well that might good for cycling on, but the general populace might prefer the trains back again.
I think the line from St Enoch through Gorbals might have been freight only but I haven't seen a train on there for a long time. There are lots of tress growing there a bit like the old Third Lanark pitch.
Hmmm, had a look with Google. There are trees on the line but there are still tracks too:
Posted 12 years ago # -
The first ramp mentioned by Folds would have taken out Firhill Stadium so maybe Partick Thistle influence too. The collective will to knock down Cowcaddens and other historical areas to build the M8 seems to have cracked in the 1960s. This led to various Bridges to nowhere (some now with offices built on top). The new southside connection to the M74 was resurrected when the Kingston Bridge was spotted to be falling down.
The rise of the car is obviously also Thatcher's fault as she convinced us all that we all need our own house and our own car. Can there have been anything wrong with trams - did they shoal like buses, break down often etc.? Or was it a mass psychology thing where they were seen as the past the same way as bulldozing whole areas of Glasgow for a motorway was apparently accepted as progress.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Glasgow has the largest network of suburban railway lines in the UK outwith London. Much of the network is 25kV AC electrified, with the exception of the Croy Line, Maryhill Line, Paisley Canal Line, South Western Lines, Shotts Line, Whifflet Line and Cumbernauld Line."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strathclyde_Partnership_for_Transport
Edinburgh has hardly any suburban network, unless you count the spurs to Newcraighall, North Berwick, and the Bathgate line (which now goes all the way to Glasgow). I don't think the Fife circle counts, though arguably much of southern Fife is a de facto dormitory suburb of Edinburgh...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Bicycle wheels got caught in the tram lines. My uncle even caught his moped wheels in them. My mum's friend had ears at different heights because his wheels were trapped and he collided with a car.
I don't know how they could avoid grouping like busses since they couldn't pass each other.
Perhaps trolley busses with a battery back up for short stretches of off piste would have been a good idea.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I think the line from St Enoch through Gorbals might have been freight only"
http://www.railbrit.co.uk/City_of_Glasgow_Union_Railway/frame.htm
Posted 12 years ago # -
That might explain why I've never been on a train in Edinburgh. OTOH I've only used a bus a few times and not for more than 10 years. Once I got a Brompton I just took that with me.
Who knew Glasgow was so good?
One of our probationers had to go into town for something last week. The older members said the best idea was to leave her car at Easterhouse and get the train but she decided against this. Queen St was 200 m from the council office which she had to go to. All the car parks are further away and circling for a space could take more time than she expected to save. Nonetheless she used the car. She doesn't even seem very experienced in city traffic as she was nervous about it.
I'll wear her down and she'll get a bike one day.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@gembo Can there have been anything wrong with trams - did they shoal like buses, break down often etc.? Or was it a mass psychology thing where they were seen as the past the same way as bulldozing whole areas of Glasgow for a motorway was apparently accepted as progress.
The post-war period in the UK is a very strange story if one cares to think about it. It seems we became so utterly transfixed by the culture of America that we adopted many attributes of US capitalism, despite having unique cultures, traditions and infrastructure of our own. Trams, railways, canals and shipping infrastructure were all in place, inherited in large part from the Victorians. We actually tore up most of this infrastructure and switched almost entirely to road transport. I can't think of any other country that has done this in such a wholesale fashion apart from the US. We did this despite living on a small, crowded island where distances between population centres are not great, ie. the complete opposite of the US situation.
Why? The shared language and cultural factors were obviously influential. But ultimately it must be because enough people's interests were served by this change: they could profit from it. Inherited infrastructure, mostly run by the state (after WW2 nationalisation), does not feed the profits of private investors. That's why it happened in the US (eg. cities like Los Angeles used to have trams), and that's why it happened here, despite the fact that it goes against logic and common sense.
Posted 12 years ago # -
A fascinating Australian documentary on the Los Angeles tram system (once one of the biggest in the world) and why it was replaced by buses after WW2: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2006/1749886.htm
Apparently something similar happened in Australia too. They forgot to mention the UK...
Posted 12 years ago #
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