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Cyclist Injured - Craigentinny

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  1. As stated above, we don't know the full facts yet.

    It might seem unlikely that such an experienced cyclist would have herself caused the incident, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

    I don't disagree with the sentiment, dangerous driving is not taken seriously enough. But until the facts are known we should not be saying that this is dangerous driving. Take it more seriously, yes; declare as guilty until proven innocent, no.

    (and that is completely different from strict liability, which is an assumption rather than a presumption)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Smudge
    Member

    Indeed, though it still stands that "clipped by a car" attributes blame to the car whilst also suggesting a glancing impact in a way that could be interpreted as not being as important/dangerous as being "struck by a car" for instance.
    I suggested to the writer, that without knowing the full facts, "was in collision with" is at least neutral and does not apportion blame. (Still don't like it much though)

    On a seperate topic, dangerous driving is imho not treated anywhere near seriously enough and we have, I believe, lost sight of the fact that a licence is a privilege and people now seem to assume it is a right.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Smudge, I agree with everything you've said there. As the now old adage goes, if you want to commit murder, use a car and say it was an 'accident'.

    And the reporting on this matter falls short of that which the unfortunate lady in question deserves. As you say, seems to apportion blame, but in a way that says "but it really wasn't that serious"

    I think the problem is that non-cyclists see this as the death being caused by the fall, not the action that caused the fall (if, again, it was that a car 'clipped' her).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. wangi
    Member

    I got a reply back from the Scotsman Assistant Editor, apologising for the error and ensuring that the web copy will be updated. (this is regarding my earlier "hitting a car while riding her bicycle" comment)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Min
    Member

    Good call. The story is down at the moment and I should think so too. Disgraceful reporting. At least they have pulled it but I suppose it went out in the print edition.

    Very sad.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    but will they report future incidents more carefully?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Kim
    Member

    @Anth that is because your are a lawyer and I am a rabble rouser... ;-)

    Looking at the media coverage, the BBC say "during the crash with a silver Vauxhall Vectra" and the EEN quotes a witness saying "It seems the woman has been clipped by the Vectra as she was cycling up the road"

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. Dave
    Member

    "Hi Rory,

    I hope you will not think it forward of me that I write to question the article currently on the EEN website at http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/Bike-horror-OAP39s-organs-set.6816720.jp

    Specifically, I object to the use of the word "clipped" - it seems to imply a less serious type of collision but, of course, it is a killing that has taken place (however unintentional). Would you report that somebody crushed to death had just been "brushed" by an HGV that mounted the kerb? I suspect not.

    I believe the correct terminology is simply that the motorist collided with the cyclist (you could try it the other way around if the cyclist was going backwards?). This reflects the accepted facts, after all.

    As it stands the article reads a bit oddly, like the motorist just happened to take a life while going about their business, oh well, whatever. Not your intention, I'm sure!

    Kind regards,"

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    I have refrained from commenting on this so far as it seems the poor woman will lose her life. What a terrible thing to happen, I feel for her family.

    I cycle through the junction where the accident happened a lot, mostly with my son in tow. It's not particularly busy but is a three way junction, so tricky at the best of times. There's a wee traffic island near Portobello Road with two lanes feeding to the main road and one the other way. Added to the junction hazard there's a cash machine and post office on the corner so cars are constantly doing u-turns and moving in and out from the junction to park.

    In short, as there is so much going on it would be quite easy for something to happen. All it needs is for someone to not pay enough attention.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Greenroofer
    Member

  11. Claggy Cog
    Member

    Audrey died this morning. Those club members that knew her will miss her very greatly. She was an inspiration to many. She was a very fit, active woman, and was an extremely competent and able cyclist, and was very aware of the rules of the road. She was far from doddery and did not wobble, I can assure you, having been out on runs with her. Her hip replacement had given her a new lease of life and freedom from the pain of her arthritis, however, she developed a DVT following her hip replacement and was on Warfarin, which is what in all likelihood contributed to her death causing an intracranial haemorrhage. I am saddened at the reportage and think that it sends out a message to many who may feel slightly apprehensive about cycling that it is indeed a dangerous past time/activity, sensationalising it and putting people off. My deepest and heartfelt condolences and sympathies to her family for their loss. I am not suggesting that the matter is not serious, for I have lost a good friend through the actions of a driver, who did at least stop and was aware that they had caused an accident, and had indeed hit Audrey's bike causing her to fall off, though incompetence, a momentary lapse in concentration or just simply being in too much of a hurry and very impatient, however, they have to live with the knowledge that she died, and as a direct consequence of their poor driving/driving skills. I thought that if you hit someone from behind you were the guilty party, suffice to say she was hit from behind, and I leave you to draw your own conclusions.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Dave
    Member

    "causing her to fall off" = "throwing her off"?

    It's all in the spin...

    Interestingly I had a very positive response from the EEN, although I don't know whether I should enclose the text here. It's probably not giving anything away to say that they agreed but feel limited by the legal process to reproducing whatever quote they are given (in this case, "clipped") whether it is agreeable or not.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Smudge
    Member

    I received a very polite and sensible reply from Mr Reynolds (the journalist who wrote the EN piece).

    He explained that he shared our concerns about the word clipped but that he felt he had to use the word used by the witnesses/Police due to the possibility of prosecution.
    He also pointed out that having been with the Ladies daughter and husband he had no desire or reason to downplay the incident in any way.
    I have thanked him for taking the time to reply.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "
    If you're coming to my mother's funeral wear cycling gear

    THE family of a woman killed after she was knocked off her bike hopes friends and family will come to her funeral in cycling gear to honour her love of life on two wheels.
    "

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/If-you39re-coming-to-my.6818057.jp

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. SRD
    Moderator

    further from the article: "Cycling is a way of life for our whole family. Mum and dad never ran a car and mum was an excellent cyclist.

    "We've all seen accidents, but it hasn't stopped us. We need to increase awareness among motorists, and rather than hand out fines and points to drivers, we'd like to see them be made to cycle 1000 miles to see what it's like."

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    AND they want a critical mass celebration.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  17. I tangentially know someone who knew the lady involved who told me today: "It's hard to take in and so sudden. I don't know any thing about the car driver, but it seems that he turned right behind a bus and didn't see her."

    I presume travelling east to west, turning right into the road, with Audrey heading in the opposite direction. So 'clipping' wasn't, say, a wing mirror just catching, but rather the front of the car 'clipping' the rear wheel side on... Still wait to know more.

    (the layout of the junction does encourage people who are driving east to west to make the turn at speed - not that they should obviously).

    Posted 12 years ago #
  18. Tulyar
    Member

    Haven't been in touch with the Fyfe's in a while, so sad to hear of this. Will try to get through for the funeral - thoughts with you.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    THE funeral of Audrey Fyfe, who died after being knocked off her bike in Portobello on August 9, will be held on Monday. 

    http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Funeral-for-tragic-bike-crash.6822039.jp

    Posted 12 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. More here from someone I know who was there.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  22. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Driver arrested over cyclist Audrey Fyfe's death.
    A driver has been arrested in connection with the death of a 74-year-old cyclist in Edinburgh.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  23. Morningsider
    Member

    According to the article the driver has been charged wtih causing death by careless driving. Section 2B of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines this offence as follows:

    "A person who causes the death of another person by driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place, is guilty of an offence."

    Careless driving is defined as driving at a standard: "below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver".

    The maximum penalty for the offence is 5 years' imprisonment with a mandatory minimum period of disqualification from driving of twelve months (or 3 -11 points where special reasons are found not to disqualify).

    Seriously, you can be found guilty of killing someone with a car and still keep your licence. What is wrong with this place!

    Posted 12 years ago #
  24. Nelly
    Member

    I am no expert, but -

    I presume there is a difference between careless and dangerous driving in potential sentence for him.

    And I also suspect they dont have enough evidence for dangerous drinving, hence the careless driving charge.

    N.b. not suggesting this is 'right' but sometimes these things happen - i.e. people convicted of a lesser offence in order to get it to stick.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  25. Min
    Member

    I thought that "driving without due care and attention" was even softer than "careless driving"?

    Has it taken the Police this long to catch the driver or is this just bad wording?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  26. What also often happens is charging with the higher offence in the knowledge that a guilty plea to a lesser offence will be expected. Look forward to hearing the 'causing death' bit is dropped and simply becomes 'careless driving' with a few hundred quid fine and 3 points.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  27. Morningsider
    Member

    Nelly - you are right. "Dangerous driving" is a more serious offence, with "Causing death by dangerous driving" the most serious motoring offence - carrying a maximum penalty of 14 years imprisonment and an unlimited fine.

    Min - its jut a wording thing, the offence is "causing death through careless, or inconsiderate, driving".

    Posted 12 years ago #
  28. crowriver
    Member

    Yes, the lives of cyclists are cheap it seems.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    What also often happens is charging with the higher offence in the knowledge that a guilty plea to a lesser offence will be expected

    This is the case in an RTA I am a witness in and have been summoned to see the Sherrif in his court about in January.

    The PC who took a statement (c. 6 weeks after accident) said they would be charging him with dangerous, hope he pleaded on careless and I wouldn't ned to go to court or here from them again.

    I take it he is contesting hence I am having to take a day off work because someone can't drive and is an idiot.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  30. Claggy Cog
    Member

    The driver stopped when he realised he had hit Audrey. It takes the police a long time to garner evidence, take statements, find witnesses, follow them up, etc. etc. Then they need to decide what they are going to charge the person with in this sort of case which may be dependent on what the witnesses saw. I think they had a problem initially in that a lot of people saw Audrey once she had come off her bike and was in the road but not the actual impact. I don't know about here as to whether the PF decides that there is a case to answer, which in England is the CPS and they can decide that a case should not go to court for a variety of reasons...and not all related to lack of evidence/witnesses and sometimes one wonders why they decided that prosecution was not on. The CPS can also take weeks and even months to decide on whether there is a case to answer, and will overrule a decision taken by the Police to press charges, it is all a bit odd frankly.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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