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Cyclist Injured - Craigentinny

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  1. Instography
    Member

    My understanding of it is that the distinction between 'dangerous' and 'careless' hinges on whether collision or injury could be a reasonably expected outcome of the driving. If, for instance, I decide to stop on the motorway and reverse back to the junction that I've just driven past, that would probably be dangerous. If I crash while distracted by changing the station on the radio, that would probably be carelessness.

    I suppose what the Fiscal has to do is take account of both the action and the consequences and, in some respects, in terms of assessing the action they need to, for a minute, disregard the consequences in determining whether the driving was careless or dangerous. Before the incident (whatever resulted from it) was the driver being careless or dangerous?

    Of course, we don't need to agree with the charge but I haven't seen anything that explains what the driver was doing in this incident.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. custard
    Member

  3. custard
    Member

    incase I get trapped in the tinned meat filter

    Driver on trial over death of elderly cyclist Audrey Fyfe

    Published on Tuesday 2 April 2013 17:34

    A MAN has gone on trial over an allegation that his supposedly careless driving caused the death of a 75-year-old cyclist.

    Gary McCourt, 49, is alleged to have driven without due care and attention at a junction between Portobello Road and Craigentinney Avenue on August 9, 2011.

    Edinburgh Sheriff Court heard the claim today that Mr McCourt was driving a vehicle which allegedly collided with a bike that was being ridden by pensioner Audrey Fyfe.

    It is alleged that Mrs Fyfe, of Coillesdene Crescent, then fell to the ground and struck her head following the collision.

    The court heard that she died from her injuries two days after the alleged incident.

    Mr McCourt, of Niddrie Mill Avenue, pleaded not guilty to one charge of careless driving at the start of the first day of proceedings against him.

    He is being represented by defence solicitor Robert Fairbairn.

    The court also heard from Mrs Fyfe’s 46-year-old daughter Linda Hamilton.

    The building standards surveyor told the court that her mother was a keen biker who would regularly go for rides with her husband.

    Mrs Hamilton, a mother of two who also lives in Edinburgh, said her mum was a member of the Cyclists Touring Club.

    Mrs Hamilton added: “She cycled most days of her life.”

    The trial, which is being heard before Sheriff James Scott, continues tomorrow.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. That's a lot of 'alleged' and one awful 'supposedly'. Thing is, I don't think the collision itself is actually alleged, but rather his standard of driving. Scotsman reports not known for accuracy, but reads as if it's only a careless driving charge, and not causing death by...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. MeepMeep
    Member

    ...she died from her injuries two days after the alleged incident...

    ...It is alleged that Mrs Fyfe, of Coillesdene Crescent, then fell to the ground and struck her head following the collision.

    Is the driver planning to plead a defence of "she fell tae the groond herself, eh, ah didnae see her so I couldnae hae hit her - ahm a cyclist tae!"? Makes my blood boil.

    A genuine question for the legal buffs - why does it take so long for these types of charges to come to trial?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. "A genuine question for the legal buffs - why does it take so long for these types of charges to come to trial?"

    Can be a myriad of reasons really, none of them really involving any intrigue, and not really limited to cases like this.

    Available court time, access to legal aid, basic evidence gathering, delays can be requested for reports etc etc etc.

    I think (and I'm going to give the Scotsman some benefit of the doubt here, which is unusual for me) that given you do have to be careful on what you say about court proceedings so as not to prejudice anything that they've gone a little ITT with the allegedly counter. It may be that the driver is claiming he didn't hit her, but I was genuinely under the impression the actual collision was a matter of fact and what he was claiming was that by turning right into a side street before a bus ahead was clear to give him a proper view of the road he hadn't actually driven carelessly (which is also balls in my book - if you can't see, don't go).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. Dave
    Member

    Unfortunately the definition isn't objective, it's merely driving of a standard "below what would be expected" by the jury (of drivers).

    There was a recent case where (IIRC) it was not opposed that a coach driver had continued driving despite either the windscreen wipers or washer jets failing, and with an obscured windscreen hit and killed two people. They merely argued that this was not careless / dangerous and the jury, sadly, agreed.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. remberbuck
    Member

    "Scotsman reports not known for accuracy, but reads as if it's only a careless driving charge, and not causing death by...".

    I think it reads like bits from the Indictment - a copy of which will be available to the court reporter. Depending on the fiscal and the court, there may several of these - e.g. "the defendant is alleged to have been driving between Portobello Road and Craigentinney Road" - most of which are obvious will never be the subject of discussion, but still have to be established as fact in court in support of the charge.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. I'd have expected things like that to have been agreed beforehand as fact so they don't have to go through the rigmarole in court of having to ask the accused, "Were you driving on Portobello Road on X date?", "Did you turn right onto X road?" etc etc. But I guess doesn't always happen.

    I only ever appeared in court once, and it was civil, and I was merely lodging a Minute of Agreement and even then got a telling off from the Sheriff for not telling him my name. I realised then that I didn't want to be a court solicitor (I enjoy speaking in public, I don't like the constraints of the legal process around it).

    Anyway, I guess there will be further information leaks out today.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "
    A MOTORIST accused of causing the death of an elderly cyclist told police how he “clipped” her bike wheel with his car then saw her “somersault” to the ground, a trial has heard.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/death-crash-accused-driver-clipped-cyclist-1-2876489

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. Dave
    Member

    "It is alleged that Mrs Fyfe fell to the ground and struck her head"

    Amusing in a sad way. Why not go the whole hog? "The allegedly deceased, who it is alleged was one Mrs Fyfe," etc...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Seen on Twitter that the driver has been found guilty. It's also just come out that he had a conviction from 1986 for causing death by dangerous/careless driving...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I caught the tail-end of an episode of Road Wars last week. As the credits rolled the voice-over provided an update on each of the prosecutions featured. Only in the case of the driver who killed a cyclist was the conviction given but not the sentence. Odd.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Dave
    Member

    Seen on Twitter that the driver has been found guilty. It's also just come out that he had a conviction from 1986 for causing death by dangerous/careless driving...

    I wonder if (and hope) the jury was made aware.

    I understand that a case should stand on its own merits - i.e. you wouldn't drag out a bunch of stalking convictions when someone is on trial for beating up their postman. However, you'd think previous convictions for stalking would be quite pertinent if someone was on trial for stalking, and similarly if they have previous for vehicular homicide.

    Those offences didn't exist in the 80s though IIRC?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. tammytroot
    Member

    Due to be sentenced 3rd of May.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. steveo
    Member

    and back on the roads by star wars day...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. PS
    Member

    I know what you're saying, Dave, but if you tell the jury that the accused was found guilty of a similar crime previously you would prejudice their judgement (such as there is) leading to an unfair trial. You'd also increase the chances of genuine reformed characters being found guilty of crimes they did not commit.

    That way leads towards the old skool approach of there being fundamentally "bad people" and "good people" (dimly remembering my A-level history, I think it was the Tory (as opposed to Whig) view of law and order back in the 18th/19th centuries). We've moved away from that to giving people a chance to change, even if they don't take it.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. steveo
    Member

    But the Judge should (does?) be able to account for it in sentencing once the jury has found the accused guilty.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. PS
    Member

    @steveo Yes

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. DaveC
    Member

    PS said "Dave, but if you tell the jury that the accused was found guilty of a similar crime previously you would prejudice their judgement (such as there is) leading to an unfair trial. You'd also increase the chances of genuine reformed characters being found guilty of crimes they did not commit.

    But if the guilty driver has fessed up stright away admitting a momentry lapse and showing genuine remores perhaps he would have saved the courts time and money and then perhaps he may not get a custodial sentence, though I think Steveo will be nearer the mark, with a suspended looking at how long ago his previous conviction was. I understand people don't get legal aid if they confess straight away, bu to be honest if people don't want to have to be applying for legal aid they should be taking more care. He should at the very least have his licence removed and have to resit after a number of years!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. neddie
    Member

    Causing 2 deaths in 2 separate incidents during your driving career isn't just bad luck, or an accident.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

  23. fimm
    Member

    Jail will not bring Audrey Fyfe back, but it will send out a signal that the courts take the offence seriously. And that might keep other Audrey Fyfes safer in the future.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. amir
    Member

    "“But I do believe he should be banned from driving for life. He had already taken one life and obviously didn’t learn to be careful before he did it again. I think he’s exhausted his chances and I can see no logical reason for leniency."

    I'd very much support this - what we most need the courts to do is to take dangerous/careless drivers off the road.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. fimm
    Member

    And sentenced...

    to 300 hours of community service.

    No mention of driving penalties at all.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. minus six
    Member

    McCourt was sentenced to 300 hours of community service and banned from driving for five years by Sheriff James Scott.

    http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/223921-gary-mccourts-momentary-lapse-of-concentration-killed-audrey-fyfe/

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. fimm
    Member

    Oh, great.
    The sheriff said "Mrs Fyfe wasn't to blame in any way for the accident. However, she was not wearing a safety helmet and that in my view contributed to her death."

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. wangi
    Member

    300 hours community service and 5 year ban. What a joke.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    Sheriff Scott said: "I take into account that the accused has repeatedly expressed genuine remorse for causing the death of Mrs Fyfe. I take into account that the accused has been ill and has suffered from depression and that he displays signs of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

    "Mrs Fyfe wasn't to blame in any way for the accident. However, she was not wearing a safety helmet and that in my view contributed to her death."

    I'm speechless.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Min
    Member

    Back on the road in 5 years.

    Judge has decided to partially blame the victim.

    UK "justice" system strikes again.

    Posted 11 years ago #

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