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653 road frame build advice

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Started 12 years ago by crowriver
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crowriver
Member

So I've been going a bit mad on fleaBay lately, buying loads of old bike stuff. Must be the new garage turning me into a 'build' crazy fella. In addition to the as yet unfinished MTB 'expedition tourer' project and the nearly complete refresh of the timewarp Raleigh Pioneer Trail, I have only gone and bought a road frame.

It's a quite nice 653 frameset made by Mike Kowal. Judging by the braze ons, headset, etc. I'm guessing late 1980s/early 1990s vintage. No pics yet, haven't had time.

My original idea had been to build this up as a 10, 12, 14 or 16 speed old style 'racer' with either second hand parts or 'entry level' new ones. But now I'm thinking about the complexities of sourcing all the bits and setting it up: I've already got multiple geared bikes coming out of my ears, or will have soon(ish). The frame has long sloping drop-outs which might suit single speed or fixed gear instead. Maybe even a flip-flop back wheel. Somehow the simplicity of that appeals. No shifters, just a front brake, maybe a rear one too.

However I have never ridden a fixed gear bike, though I have zipped about on single speeds (eg. BMX) in my time. So I thought I would reach out to those more knowledgable than I. Please feel free to comment on any of the below should it be of interest at all.

Fixie or single speed? Flip-flop?
Cranks: any recommendations for manufacturer, number of teeth (for hilly Edinburgh), etc.?
Rear cogs: I presume 'more is better' applies in these less than pancake flat surroundings?
Brakes: caliper? Side-pull? U-brake?
Bars: classic drop, moustache, or bull horn?
Wheels: retro or track racer?
Any issues relating to the frame I might have to consider?

Decisions, decisions. Something so apparently simple is becoming increasingly complex!

Posted 12 years ago #
Nelly
Member

Sounds fun !

Much of what you are asking is personal preference, but regarding cranks / cogs etc my SS runs 42 / 16, which seems to work ok in edinburgh - enough oomph for most flats, and still bearable on most hills.

You will be amazed how quiet it is compared to a geared bike.

Look forward to progress pictures.

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Crowriver,

I did similar with 1987 Raleigh 531 frame that a man sold/swapped me for special price.

I had frame stripped and sprayed loclaly (£70) and sourced decals and headbadge (£12) on fleaBay.

New headset (about £20)
New BB fitted in shop (could have salvaged old one, but shell had corroded thanks to design flaw in Giant frame)
New old stock Cinelli track stem (£12)
Got some dropped bullhorn pursuit bars in a swap
Pair of new Cane Creek TT bar-end brake levers (About £25)
Off of the old Giant singlespeed (didn't like the frame) I salvaged;
- Alex wheels, pretty standard
- Flip-flop hub (x17 both sides)
- 47 tooth Sugino Messenger crankset
- Basic Tektro dual pivot calipers. These are a bit bendy and will replace with better ones later, probably 105 or equivalent.
Off of tourer I put my old SKS Chromoplastic mudguards
New roll of yellow bar tape
Spare yellow cable outers from previous recabling jobs.
Temporary spare Fizik road bike saddle and seatpost (to be replaced by a Brooks B17)

Sorted!

Didn't take too long once all the bits were assembled and here are a few inspiration pictures. I've not actually got many because it hasn't been used much as the steerer threads have stripped and need to get a new one welded on. I've found a man who knows what he's doing to do it, just haven't got round to getting it done.

Basically, you've got a whole heap of opportunity and it will be fun to build and ride. Build is fun working out how much bits of beer tin you need to hold various bits together :)

Second what Nelly says about how quiet they run.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Thanks for the enthusiastic responses, chaps. It was good to get some inspiration.

I've assembled a motley collection of bits for my build from local and fleaBay sources. 2nd hand wheels (though rear rims have seen better days); 16t cog and spacers to convert a cassette hub (2nd hand but very good nick); 'Vintage' Dawes Maes bars, NOS Weinmann levers, 1980s 120mm Sakae stem, Kalin seatpost; New BB, dual pivot brakes, chain, chainset (40t - bit wimpy maybe but I'm no youngster); Cables and bar tape picked up in EBC sale; 2nd hand hardly used 'racing' saddle. New headset and pedals on order (the old Stronglight A9 with needle bearings might be serviceable after a good clean but looks a bit risky). Just need some hoods, barrel adjusters, etc. and I'm set.

Below is a shot of the frame, if you click on it you can see more pics on Flickr.

I'm having a paintwork dilemma. There are a few spots of rust here or there, nothing too serious and can be treated; there's paint rubbed, scratched or flaking off; many of the decals with the frame builder's name have come off or are in the process of doing so; also some poor attempts at retouching paint by the previous owner. Basically it looks tatty. However I kinda like the metallic blue and the scruffiness of the frame - it might help deter thieves for one thing.

On the other hand I could spend more than the frame cost getting it stripped/walnut blasted and powder coated in a nice shade. Or I could get the Nitromors out, sand down the residue and paint it myself. But then the bike might look a bit 'flash' and attract tealeaf attention while I'm sipping cappucino somewhere...

I really can't decide what to do about the paint.

Mike Kowal Reynolds 653 racing frame

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

lovely frame - nice lugwork, internal cable runs, elegant dropout design.

I think it deserves a nice new paint job :) Easier now than after you've assembled it all!

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

I think I have to (somewhat reluctantly) agree. Not sure whether to do it myself, as I'm hellishly slow: hence why the MTB/Expedition tourer project is crawling along. It's all the waiting and sanding between coats, etc. I'm duty bound to finish that frame first, really.

I've heard Henderson's do 2-pack paint jobs: anyone know if they're any good at doing bike frames? There's also BBS Edinburgh powdercoaters, who are supposed to be quite good. Both are quite handy for me, living as I do in the East end.

Anybody have experience of either of these paint shops?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

@crowriver yes, the bike above was done by Hendersons. They can do all forms of blasting and will do either powdercoat or painting. The man recommended not to powdercoat a steel frame, as over time the coating can separate slightly from the frame allowing small pockets for moisture to collect in = rust. The painting process includes a preservative undercoat which he said was good for steel.

£70 for frame and fork (or £60 if you use a colour of paint they already have in stock i.e. black!) Took about 10 days from dropping off to picking up. Will order in any paint you want including metallic / sparkly finishes. Also finished off the threads and race surfaces to remove paint there.

I was very happy with service / finish. Guy knew his stuff and talked me through what they could do. They also seemed quite familiar with working on bike frames, (pedal and motorbike) and had a few in on the shelves to show me when I first went in.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Thanks for that. Did you strip/sand the frame yourself or just hand it over and let them do everything?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

handed it over in original condition. The blasting was part of the painting costs.

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Is also assumed: fork detached from frame when handed over?

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

yes. headset / bottom bracket was already removed from frame.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

I put together a wee mock-up of the finished bike, sans headset/bottom bracket (see below). Having thought about it, I'm considering just giving the frame a clean, treating the rust, and building it up. Then I'll ride it for a bit and see if it suits me. So difficult to tell until I actually ride the damn thing.

If it does, then I might treat the frame to a respray: probably do it in the depths of winter when skinny road tyres will be foolhardy anyhow.

Mike Kowal frame

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Will you use downtube shifters or convert to STIs?

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

There won't be any shifters (yet) as I've converted the rear hub to a single 16t cog. I've bought a 40t single chainset and will see how I get on with single speed riding...

Always the option to add extra gears (maybe with downtube shifters) later if need be.

Posted 12 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

An Octavia? I used one for a few years.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

@Cyclingmollie An Octavia?

Is that roadie slang for a speedy bike that hides beneath an inconspicuous exterior (like the eponymous Skoda)? Or did I get the wrong end?

Anyway, just for a laugh I test fitted dual pivot brakes to the Mike Kowal this afternoon in a spare moment. The clearance on this bike is really tight! The wheels you can see in the photo are 700c rims, with 23mm tyres on. Maybe 2mm clearance from the tyre to the arch of the brake calipers. I'm beginning to wonder now.

Either:
a. This a serious racer frame, only the skinniest of tyres allowed (23mm max). I should really be going for a respray and full Campy throughout. ;-)
b. The frame was designed for 650B wheels and tyres.

The latter seems a bit unlikely: the frame is old, but not that old. If it is a 'real' road race frame though perhaps I'm doing it a disservice with my single speed set up?

Posted 12 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

I think builders try to reduce the wheelbase on racing frames by tucking the back wheel in tight behind the seat tube. But there's a fair bit of clearance there. So it may not be an out and out racing frame.

"Octavia" - I thought you had a Selle Italia Octavia saddle - the one with the odd shaped nose.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Oh I see, well it is a Selle Italia but I don't know the model (neither did the previous owner I bought it from) so could be an Octavia.

It's true that I've seen narrower gaps between seatpost and rear wheel on some road bikes. Maybe the brakes I acquired are a bit chunky compared to more expensive ones. Certainly I can't see a 25mm tyre fitting in there. Mind you I suppose 23mm is not that skinny for the really fast riders...

Posted 12 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

I think it depends a lot on the combination of brake caliper and where the mounting bracket is on the stay / bolt hole is on the fork. I can fit 25mm and full mudguards under the Shimano 105 brakes (which are middle of their "road" range) certainly and could probably get away with a 28mm tyre and no guard. Same goes for the generic Tektro calipers on the singlespeed (one in pictures above).

But when Smudge built his road bike up I recall that he couldn't get the blocks to reach the rim (there's a thread somewhere) even when dropped to the bottom of the arms of the caliper.

If you tried a different caliper you might find that there would be room for a wider tyre

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

I knew already there was no space for mudguards on the frame. I know for sure that 28mm tyres won't fit. The wheels had 28mm tyres on originally, and I couldn't get the back wheel on without deflating the tyre: those Campy style sloping dropouts mean the wheel has to come forward to slot in. With those tyres on and pumped up, the tyre rubbed against the rear brake bridge.

23mm on the other hand looks just right in the frame. The lower end brakes I got hold of don't look like they are particularly 'fat' compared to 105's but then I'm relying on Googol image search... :P Everything fits in fine, the bolt holes are the recessed type and the bolts fit perfectly. No problem to align the blocks on the rim either - standard 'short' reach calipers. Just can't believe the tyre clearance is so small. I mean the wheels spin well, no rubbing but a wee stone, leaves or mud off the road and there could be an issue. Maybe the frame is not designed for dual pivot calipers, but the old style single pivot? Not impossible given it's likely 20 years old.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

@Cyclingmollie, looks like you were correct, according to the interweb it's an Oktavia saddle. Must be 'k' for kool, right? :p

Posted 12 years ago #
steveo
Member

Didn't wingpig have similar clearance issues with his ebc racer?

Posted 12 years ago #
wingpig
Member

The seat tube-tyre distance was my problem, exacerbated by the front mech having to be fixed round the seat tube at the tyre's point of closest approach. Thicker fastening band on replacement mech limits me to 23. With 25 I couldn't have fitted a full-length mudguard under the brake.

Posted 12 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

Crowriver: "I couldn't get the back wheel on without deflating the tyre: those Campy style sloping dropouts mean the wheel has to come forward to slot in."

That might explain the larger gap between the tyre and the seat tube. The 753 stays and hidden cable runs suggest it is a high-end frame.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

20mm tyres then? Sore bum city. So I need to forget this single speed stuff and start saving up for a full Campag groupset ? :))

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Sorry, double post due to sluggish interweb.

The 753 stays and hidden cable runs suggest it is a high-end frame.

The guy I bought it from was a keen club rider with 18 bikes in the garage. He was de-cluttering I suppose!

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

So, I fitted some 1980s vintage Weinmann AG570 Top single-pivot calipers to the frame today. Clearances are great. Looks like I could get 25mm tyres in there no problem, maybe even some clip-on mudguards like the skinny Crud road racer ones.

Clearly this 1980s frame requires 1980s brakes! In keeping with the 1980s vibe I've fitted a bright red NOS clip-on rear mudguard for raccoon stripe prevention.

New headset is on, will fit BB and cranks once I've cleaned inside the shell area thoroughly with steel wool and WD40.

Getting there...

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Finally got an afternoon free today to start the build proper. Just brakes and bar tape to add and I'm ready to hit the town... Took it for a quick spin round the yard and it rides nicely.

Mike Kowal frame

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Mike Kowal Single Speed

Here is the completed bike. Finally got around to some pics of it finished. 23mm tires, dual pivot brakes, handlebar tape. Some Knog Frog lights in red silicone complete the setup. Maybe just a bell to add, on the stem somewhere. Haven't yet fitted the new Velo Orange rackaleur permanently for a bar bag.

She rides well: incedibly light bike which I can lift easily with one hand up stairs. Very quiet runner, and fairly speedy though I haven't really tried hills yet.

Posted 12 years ago #
Dave
Member

Thumbs up - very nice!

Posted 12 years ago #