Princes Street "Cyclist Dismount" « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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Princes Street "Cyclist Dismount"

(154 posts)

Started 13 years ago by DaveC
Latest reply from steveo

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DaveC
Member

Well on my ride in today with baldcyclist I came in from haymarket and cut down to Princes Street. I see there is a large 'Cyclists Dismount' sign on the emergency lane left on Princes Street (also for deliveries). who's bright idea was that? The only traffic free, pothole free, quiet route through 'town' is closed toc cyclists. I don't mind admitting I cycled the length to St Andrew Sq, with wide eyes looking out for LBP's finest, with the recent thread mentioning fines in mind... I saw a number of cyclists so perhaps the police have not patrolled it or are turning a blind eye. I'm all for shared use so long as cyclist are mindfull of blind pedestrians stepping out with out looking over their shoulder, but a complete ban is silly considering how quiet the route is even around lunch time when I took a walk to the west end to meet tha family last week.

I think if questions are allowed at the up and coming 'Evening lecture - Transport financing' on 8th November, and might write to my local MSP (friend) & cc Malcolm Chisholm, about this.

Posted 13 years ago #
Stepdoh
Member

I suspect the reasoning behind it is that it's a fire/ambo route, and since the pavements are high on one side and there's a metal wall on other there's no way to get out of the way quickly.

Oh, no sorry, that's delivery vans, the rest of us could just hop up on the pavement.

Posted 13 years ago #
wingpig
Member

I saw plenty of cyclists using it in both directions when I walked along PS last week on a shop-mission. I think I shall continue to avoid using it just in case the time I try it is the time there's a police watching out for people trying it in order to nab them.

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

Exactly Stepdoh. It's used by delivery vans, and one day I was walking along a giant tipper truck was delivering stuff to the tramworks - not exactly going to be able to shift that in a hurry!

It's just indicative of the fact that the council most certainly does not take cycling seriously! In other places (okay, Copenhagen and Amsterdam as the usual examples) it just wouldn't have entered their minds to block cyclists from using that route.

I'm sure I've mentioned before, but in Copenhagen there was one bridge which was closed off for roadworks to all but pedestrians. Next to it they had built a temporary bridge. SPECIFICALLY FOR CYCLISTS.

Model. Cycling. City.

I think Morningsider was looking for the traffic order around that. It would be interesting to know if the sign was purely advisory or mandatory.

Posted 13 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

While riding across town yesterday, I decided to avoid Princes St's quiet non-cycle non-pedestrian lane, and go for George St instead.

And how lovely it was! Wall to wall buses and taxis tailgating each other and any cyclists foolish enough to be in the same square mile, heaving tarmac, and pedestrians trying their best to cross the road on the painted-out zebra crossings. Just like old times. :-(

Posted 13 years ago #
wingpig
Member

Hmm. "Cyclists Dismount" doesn't say "Cyclists Dismount and then Walk Along the Footway/Pavement/Whatever, Look just Stay Out of the Road (and Go at Walking Speed)", even if that's what they meant. Riding along the road would therefore be less obstructive than pushing a cycle along the road.

Posted 13 years ago #
D_Monkey
Member

Am I not right in thinking that Princes Street is a core route, thus (technically) the Cyclists Dismount sign is unenforcable?

I'm aware that core route map is a little 'fuzzy', but it's certainly listed.

Posted 13 years ago #
Dave
Member

As Anth says, the dismount sign is not telling you to get off the road, just to get off your bike. I've often thought that actually dismounting in such places might be quite an effective form of protest, since there are certainly no "pedestrians clear orf" signs (at least not ones that can be quickly and legally erected).

Posted 13 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

A cyclist who dismounts is then a pedestrian, who would then be walking on the road. Pedestrians are still allowed to walk on the road as far as I know, but is that route actually a 'path' and the only reason people don't walk on it is because they'd get run over?

Posted 13 years ago #
Stepdoh
Member

Should me have a dismounted critical mass one day.

Everyone in cycle shoes would be like a trooping of the colour. Clip Clop Clip Clop.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Official answer -

"
Simply put, all vehicles (including cyclists) are banned from Princes Street at this time due to Tram Works. Loading and unloading is only allowed at certain times.

"

Times not specified...

Posted 13 years ago #
DaveC
Member

Can you name you're source please chdot as I have emailed my constituency MSP, Mr MacKenzie and they are seeking to clarify with the head of transport at Edinburgh City Council (perhaps the same person as above?)

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

I think I'll have a ride along it after work tomorrow.

Posted 13 years ago #
Dave
Member

Clearly all vehicles can't be banned (unless there's a sign of the correct type, backed by the correct TTRO or whatever it is).

In any case, somebody should point out that the cyclist dismount sign doesn't mean no cycling. It's an advisory only. The sign for no cycling is:

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Can you name you're source please chdot"

Not as such.

I was forwarded an email which contained the above sentences plus a first name. So I don't really know who or where they are.

But I trust the forwarder.

The information is what is officially believed to be correct, but I'm sure the precise details of the TRO will emerge. It will be interesting to see if TRO specifies the un/loading times (probably) and IF it specifies that deliverers must be in motorised vehicles!

It seems unlikely that any action would taken against any cyclist when the roadway is not in use by tram related lorries. (As long as they are cycling 'responsibly' of course.)

Posted 13 years ago #
crowriver
Member

The sign for no cycling is:

Looks more like 'no cycle speedway' judging by the bike. Anyway ithat bike is not going to go far with no chain and no spokes so the ban is academic.

Posted 13 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

if you were cycling along the road bit, and not on the pavement, and you happened to be pulled over by the cycleplod, what is the offence that you would actually be charged with (and would the polis even know)?

Posted 13 years ago #
D_Monkey
Member

Umm...
~~Cycling on the pavement~~
~~Cycling on the road~~
~~Cycling through a red light~~
~~Careless cycling~~
Pointing out the inadequacies of the current police training regime.

Posted 13 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

Breach of a TRO (or whatever the official offence is called), but then you'd need to know that you were breaching the TRO, which would require being informed of it by signage.

However this is just based on information on a blog about English & Welsh cycling law:

http://ukcyclerules.com/2011/08/09/cycling-one-way-streets/

In England, it would appear that cycling in breach of a TRO is only enforceable if the signage is correct - and that might well be the "no cycling" sign above, rather than a dismount sign.

As my kids have asked me, when may we remount?

Robert

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"Breach of a TRO (or whatever the official offence is called), but then you'd need to know that you were breaching the TRO, which would require being informed of it by signage"

I presume this is something to do with the specific nature of a TRO? General principle of law, ignorance of a law is no defence.

Posted 13 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

@anth - yes, because how would you know that a particular street was designated one way by a piece of paper in the council records office, unless it was signposted one way?

Particularly true for temporary Traffic Regulation Orders like roadworks (uncharacteristically almost bringing us back on topic!)...

Robert

Posted 13 years ago #
DaveC
Member

Quentin said any LBP who stopped a cyclist on there would have to be REALLY bored!!! when I suggested I ride along at a gentle pace slowing at Ped crossing points.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Posted 13 years ago #
miggy_magic
Member

A friend and I cycled along westbound on Friday around 6pm on our way home from work.

Just before Castle Street, we encountered the aftermath of a what seemed to be an accident involving a pedestrian and a cyclist - a distinguished looking guy. Tall with a baldy head and a big bushy beard.

It must've been quite a high velocity impact as there were a couple of pools of blood (the pedestrian's by the looks of it) and a lot of concerned folk nearby.

The cyclist was giving his details or a statement to a policeman.

It sounded like an ambulance was en route too.

We were asked firmly but politely by the WPC to dismount from our bikes, which we did.

I was a bit embarrassed as I'd failed to notice any 'no cycling' or 'cyclists dismount' signs.

I wouldn't be surprised if this incident (if it was indeed a collision between a cyclist and a pedestrian) will lead to stricter enforcement of the cycling ban.

Posted 13 years ago #
DaveC
Member

Some wizzy bu**er always spoils it for us sensible slower types....

Posted 13 years ago #
Wilmington's Cow
Member

"Some wizzy bu**er always spoils it for us sensible slower types...."

Funny, that's precisely what I was thinking - as well as sympathy for the hit pedestrian.

Posted 13 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Of course such things will 'justify' a cycle ban.

I was there yesterday cycling pretty slowly (partly because I was taking photos).

This (just about) shows the pedestrian 'crossing'

Don't suppose there are signs telling the peds to 'look out for works/emergency/delivery vehicles'.

Wonder how slow 'allowed' drivers are told to drive.

It is still not clear whether a cycle ban is legal. IF the paperwork (TRO) is in order are the signs enough??

When the most recent works/barriers were put in there was no ped crossing at the west end of Princes Street/east side of Lothian Road.

Now there is. So clearly the designers weren't adequately able to predict the way people actually behave - and plan for them to do this SAFELY.

Perhaps cycling should be allowed with lots of warning signs (for cyclists and pedestrians).

Posted 13 years ago #
Min
Member

There are some signs telling pedestrians to look out for "traffic" if I remember correctly but they are rather confusing since it doesn't even look like "traffic" can get down there although I guess it can.

Posted 13 years ago #
DaveC
Member

chdot, PM me you're email address and I'll send you a copy of the TRO. I asked for a copy from Gordon MacKenzie.

Posted 13 years ago #
DaveC
Member

THE CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL (EDINBURGH TRAM NETWORK) (TEMPORARY ROAD RESTRICTION AND TRAFFIC REGULATION) No. 2 ORDER 2008 - TEMP/08/86

THE CITY OF EDINBURGH COUNCIL HAVE MADE AN ORDER UNDER SECTION 14 (1) (A) OF THE ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984, AS AMENDED, THE EFFECT OF WHICH WILL BE THAT FOR A TEMPORARY PERIOD TO FACILITATE THE UTILITIES DIVERSIONS AND OTHER RELATED WORK REQUIRED IN CONNECTION WITH THE EDINBURGH TRAM NETWORK, THE USE OF THE ROADS SPECIFIED IN SCHEDULE 1 ATTACHED SHALL BE PROHIBITED, RESTRICTED OR REGULATED FROM TIME TO TIME BY ONE OR MORE OF THE MEASURES SPECIFIED IN SCHEDULE 2 ATTACHED, ALL AS SIGNED ON STREET AS AFFECTED BY THE WORKS . THE ORDER SHALL HAVE EFFECT FROM 7 APRIL 2008 AND SHALL BE REVOKED AFTER THE WORKS ARE COMPLETE. IT IS EXPECTED THAT THE WORKS WILL TAKE IN EXCESS OF 18 MONTHS TO COMPLETE.

DETAILS OF THE ALTERNATIVE ROUTES FROM TIME TO TIME AVAILABLE FOR THROUGH VEHICULAR TRAFFIC CAN BE VIEWED AT http://WWW.EDINBURGHTRAMS.COM ACCESS FOR EMERGENCY VEHICLES WILL BE MAINTAINED. PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC AND ACCESS WILL BE MAINTAINED.

ALASTAIR MACLEAN COUNCIL SOLICITOR, HIGH STREET EDINBURGH
SCHEDULE 1

LIST OF ROADS TO BE AFFECTED BY THE EDINBURGH TRAM NETWORK

SOUTH CHARLOTTE STREET

SCHEDULE 2

MEASURES TO APPLY TO THE ROADS SPECIFIED IN SCHEDULE 1

1. SUSPENSION OF PROHIBITION OF LEFT TURN TO PRINCES STREET

SCHEDULE 3

EXCLUDED VEHICLES

1. NONE

NOTE
THE ROADS LISTED ABOVE WILL BE AFFECTED BY THE NECESSARY WORKS ON

SATURDAY 3 SEPTEMBER 2011 05:00 HRS TO TUESDAY 31 JULY 2012 23:59HRS

PLEASE CONTACT THE TRAMS FOR EDINBURGH HELPLINE FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ON 0800 3283934

REF: SOUTH CHARLOTTE STREET 030911 TO 310712

Posted 13 years ago #