CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
An average of 10mph sounds pretty reasonable to me judging my the number of people I overtake and what seems to be a big difference in speed as I pass them.
Having read kaputnik's post I can't see me cycling on the road at that speed. I'd probably go to Riccarton park and ride rather than the airport and get myself onto the canal for the day.
If I go the Abercorn/Arthur route it'll make going at 10mph fun and mostly traffic-free for the first few miles, then I can go west via the quiet hinterlands of the Grange. Not touching London Road or the Cowgate at those speeds.
Of course doing 10mph on a skinny tyred tall geared featherweight roadbike is an entirely different challenge to doing 10mph on an all rounder....
My Surly is not outrageously heavy for a tourer, and has 26" wide middling slow tyres, over undulating roads (Bathgate Alps!) I tend to average about 12mph. I'm passed by the odd roadie, but tbh not by many others.
It rather suggests that our commenters are fitter than they may imagine and riding faster bikes?
As I think I rambled earlier, my MTB doesn't have a working speedo just now, but I would estimate my speed around town today to be in the region of 10mph, overtakers were conspicuous by their absence... I also found the traffic no problem at all in the city centre as they were generally not much faster than me (and slower in places!)
For what it's worth, my average speed on the black fixie is currently listed as 14.5mph, but because of highish gearing it only feels comfortable to ride in the 15-25mph bracket. I love wheeching along on that thing, even more so love being past the comfort zone, only ride it when I feel like a fast run, and yet the average speed is less than the lower end of the intended speed; I evidentally spend a fair amount of time riding slowly, such as filtering, and I imagine any times I push the bike drop the average dramatically.
So...if the average is 10mph, I'd have to see their method of determining that before I agreed the average maximum was 10mph too.
All pedantic maths-nerd quibbling, of course. The initiative to ride much slower than usual to see how the other half lives remains a good one.
@smudge - the gearing is a big problem when your smallest gear isn't very small and when your legs are used to having a fair amount of resistance to push against I found my legs either thrashing around in the lower gears looking for some rhythm, or as soon as I went into a higher gear, the speed jumped up.
To be honest, hills were a relief to have something to push against!
@Kaputnik, exactly. You are used to pushing quite hard against a relatively stiff resistance, many bimblers (myself included usually!) are used to spinning gently against a light resistance.
When I go back to the roadbike after my other bikes it's a real shock to the system only having a double and having to push a relatively tall gear!
"My new years resolution this year was to cycle slower"
"This works, I’m a more relaxed fellow and I haven’t felt like I’m about to die all year. But it’s not without it’s downsides"
http://pedestrianiselondon.tumblr.com/post/19751504288/shared-use
I wasn't able to participate today as my failure with the White Fright led to a mad rush to work on the hardtail... tomorrow!
Regarding the speed - there isn't an official average (presumably because it can't easily be measured!) but 10mph seems to be an average average. For instance, from a random TfL PDF I have to hand: "The average cycle speed is assumed to be 15 kilometres per hour... keen cyclists will generally cycle faster and further than average, and so would be willing to cycle trips excluded here as not potentially cyclable."
Another source quotes TfL second hand with an average of 12mph. Whatever.
In any case, 10mph is slow enough to be painfully slow while still being fast enough to maintain steering way. I would expect to pass, or hold level with, quite a large number of cyclists riding at 10mph, especially if you diversify beyond the hardcore dedicated commuters (after all, the point of the exercise is not to empathise with people like yourself).
"I would expect to pass, or hold level with, quite a large number of cyclists riding at 10mph"
That would be an interesting thing to measure. At the moment I find it hard to believe; uphill probably, but on the flat?
I had intended to max out at 10mph yesterday but at the first junction I found myself putting my foot down to get around the back of a lorry which was slow getting through the junction across me.
Then I kind of didn't bother after that. Didn't help that my speedo battery was flat.
I've been riding about on a universal stowaway for the last few days http://www.chelseabikes.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&catId=56&productId=226
Just to pick up on the 'walking at 5mph' point from earlier in the thread I tested my walking speed the other day over about 1/3rd of a km or so.
I was using My Tracks on my Android phone which I discovered doesn't have a very granular speed display. Not sure if that's a limitation of the phone or the software or something else.
Walking briskly I was either at 7.2kph or 8.1kph. Average speed came out at 7.55kph (4.69mph).
I was walking a bit faster than I normally would so I reckon normal walking speed for me is between 4 and 4.5mph.
You must have long legs *and* stride out! :-o
I've been ill with flu for the past couple of weeks: I'm recovering slowly and am back on the bike, but I'm still pretty weak and can't manage my usual speeds. It's been a bit of a revelation having a cruising speed of 10mph, a maximum speed of 12mph and no acceleration. It's really quite frightening on the road.
The speed differential between me and the traffic feels much more. I don't have the acceleration to get in front of things at lights, junctions and roundabouts, and I generally feel more vulnerable and 'in the way'. I don't feel like part of the traffic stream, and I find myself hugging the kerb in a very unwise way.
As I say, it's revelation. Regular cyclists forget how fit we are and how fast we go, and think that it's the same for everyone. I reckon my experience now is what everyone who's returning to cycling feels to start with.
It's not nice!
I have single speed bike again ideal for this. This sounds like a good exrecise in empathy. IAM reckon speed is a contribution to safety so I'm worried that at 10mph I won't be able to turn right. Of course if enough 10mph cyclists are out there then it should all be quite calm.
Average speed of car in town is 12mph. 2mph is massive difference at this level though!
I wonder if this is an unsuitable brand for the Festival of Cycling?
My temporary miniature Schnauzer wasn't happy going more than granny speed, so that's the pace I cycled when she was in the trailerised cage. Acceleration and braking was similarly gentle.
I really didn't like it, even with the massive amount of room that drivers give when there's a cute wee dug in tow.
I tried to ride to work today pedalling at no more than 10mph, freewheeling excepted. I even took my Brompton to make sure.
It felt so slow! I think the slowest I managed was 11mph, and at that speed I dared not take an active primary position on the road. Despite much looking over my shoulder, consequently I had two close calls where cars overtook me at pedestrian islands, including the one outside the ex-B&Q, soon Sainsbury's at Slateford, where I let fly with a rude word at a poker-faced driver who sat staring dead ahead.
But on the upside, I arrived at work only a couple of minutes later than usual and feeling remarkably chilled out.
Regular cyclists forget how fit we are and how fast we go.
Absolutely this.
and feeling remarkably chilled out
That's it in a nutshell. That's why I use quiet roads and go slowly. I'm no longer able to take the hassle and pressure of the angry competition for road space. If I can't cycle somewhere slowly and gently, I won't do it.
All we need to is redesign the roads so that there is no competition between road users. It's so simple and so necessary.
I don't really get this thread. If I was to suggest that perhaps many people don't understand what it feels like as a parent to take your children out onto the roads on their bikes would you have to raise some kids to find out? Or would you take my word for it that it can be dismal? The thrill of cycling on the roads for the first time, for me, offset any sense of trepidation. I did eventually sense something wasn't quite adding up. And that's when I read Cyclecraft and sorted that out. But as an experienced rider trying to keep to 10mph (e.g when I've broken spokes) the feeling is very frustrating because I know what I am doing wrong and I am not getting the benefit of my hard earned fitness (to take primary for example). It's just not the same.
I didn't know what cycling with kids was like until a week before POP1. It was a genuine revelation to me that mini-SRD(a year ago) doesn't have the same wattage as me. Well, okay, I knew she wouldn't, but the ratio surprised me.
It might seem obvious to a lot of people but plainly some folk really don't seem to understand why everyone shouldn't just "man up" and "take the lane" and all the rest of it. (It works for them so it must work for everyone, right?) So I think it's a message well worth repeating from time to time.
@Tom - trying to keep to 10mph... the feeling is very frustrating because I know what I am doing wrong
This is the point. It's wrong to cycle on the roads at 10mph, and it's wrong to cycle on much cycle infrastructure at 10mph.
Which means it's wrong to cycle if you're not young, male, fit and fearless.
Ultimately many would like to see this situation changed, to see cycle infrastructure suitable for folk aged 8-80.
If anyone doubts that this isn't a good idea, and that really the roads are fine if you "keep your wits about you", then the challenge is to attempt to do it "wrong" to see what it's like for the inexperienced, young, and more vulnerable cyclist.
Even those that are convinced of the need for change, sometimes need to be reminded experientially of how desperately it is required.
Robert
cc: "plainly some folk really don't seem to understand why everyone shouldn't just "man up" and "take the lane" and all the rest of it"
No, I do understand. I've ridden with my children on the roads and know just how bad things are. I don't think you can know what anger is until you have seen your own children being cut up by morons in cars. Perhaps I'm undermining my own argument here but I just don't think everything has to learned experientially.
Tom: agreed! (And that must have been just appalling for you all!)
I've only just realised that this thread was started a year ago.(!)
Anyway I did ride at 10mph this morning in honour of 'non-furious cycling' quite easily, due to the gale blowing. Was spotted by uberuce at Argyle Place (happy birthday Bruce).
Once at the shop I selected a lower bike to compare.
Of course speed isn't everything...
I don't really get this thread. If I was to suggest that perhaps many people don't understand what it feels like as a parent to take your children out onto the roads on their bikes would you have to raise some kids to find out? Or would you take my word for it that it can be dismal?
As the creator of National Ride Like Your Gran Day* (TM) I feel compelled to defend the concept. I absolutely think that a significant proportion (perhaps a straight majority) of cyclists are so divorced from the experience of riding on the road as "enjoyed" by Joe Public that they can't really connect with aspirant (or non-) cyclists.
To a lesser extent, I suspect that stronger riders can't really empathise with slower riders either. For instance, I have never once had a problem at Leith Street / Calton Road. Yet, we know from CCE that cyclists displaced from St Andrews Sq onto Leith Street are giving up / contemplating giving up riding through town.
I could just tell them to ride like me. This is the Franklin approach. It might come as a surprise that our "national curriculum" for cycling actually discusses the important of developing a sprint speed of 20mph for "junctions with complex manouvering". "... simply force yourself to pedal faster," he (and thus, the government) says.
Ride Like Your Gran day is about hammering home the danger and unpleasantness of cycling to those experienced riders who've learned to cope in a way that the public never can.
Franklin at least has the excuse that he is writing to increase the survival prospects of people who /are/ determined to cycle on today's roads - like wearing a hazmat suit to enter a contaminated area, this is A Good Idea.
But it's not actually a solution. We should clear up the roads rather than restrict them to the lucky few willing and able to develop their "personal hazmat".
Also...
Since founding the National Ride Like Your Gran movement, I have actually come up with an even more powerful self-improvement technique: personally train somebody to cycle to work. It's almost completely impossible and the lack of support from fellow cyclists will prove extremely enlightening (for instance, on this very forum we concluded that my erstwhile colleague, too afraid not to ride on a short stretch of pavement, should give up and get back in his car).
I'm sure this is similar to the experience you have with your kids (indeed, probably a pale imitation of it) but, let me tell you, it is absolutely not sufficient just to hear people describe it.
I think that "developing a sprint speed of 20mph for "junctions with complex manouvering" is important - but it shouldn't be.
(I'm agreeing with Dave.)
Don't quite agree with this -
"For instance, I have never once had a problem at Leith Street / Calton Road"
I probably have fewer problems than some people because I can accelerate reasonably well and I am experienced enough to anticipate most things.
Though the taxi driver who parked at the narrow opening to CR and the van driver who tried to get through a non-existent gap at the side of a bus made things interesting recently.
That junction has been a disgrace for well over 20 years and has actually been made worse due to new developments and poor road markings.
But there is hope...
"
Future investment will be required to address the connection to the city centre including key sections at Picardy Place, Leith Street and the link to Calton Road. This work should dovetail with the improvements to the tram route through St Andrew Square and York Place and Princes Street/George Street.
"
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9679&page=7#post-105374
Dave, if you do go ahead with National Ride Like Your Gran Day please do remember that you're leaving your personal hazmat behind and take extra care.
Here's a role model for you http://idonotdespair.com/2013/03/19/when-i-see-a-determined-lady-on-a-bike-i-do-not-despair-for-the-future-of-the-human-race/
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