I'd never cycle without protective eyewear.
However as I cycle defensively and within my abilities, a hat would be superfluous.
Unless I lived in FEAR.
Hurrah for Spokes! Compulsion is wrong.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
'Cycling body withdraws support for events that encourage the use of helmets'
(219 posts)- Started 12 years ago by chdot
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Posted 12 years ago #
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Dave - I think we are actually agreeing. Policy makers generally have a fixed (poor) view of cyclists that this policy won't change. However, the policy will change their view of SPOKES, most likely for the worse - which as the a well known campign group isn't exactly ideal.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Posted 12 years ago #
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I used to think there was a strong 'pro' and 'anti' helmet camp.This thread has changed my mind!
The people who wear helmets, seem to do so and not broadcast the fact to the world.
The people who don't wear helmets have such strong views about the subject, that they argue about it amongst themselves? You all seem to agree, why the argument?Posted 12 years ago # -
There are some very strongly anti-helmet people on here. Some of them wear helmets themselves.
Morningsider Policy makers generally have a fixed (poor) view of cyclists that this policy won't change. However, the policy will change their view of SPOKES, most likely for the worse - which as the a well known campign group isn't exactly ideal.
I think you are right but that attitude is never going to change unless groups like Spokes make a stand over it. Maybe more will follow suit?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I used to think there was a strong 'pro' and 'anti' helmet camp.
I suspect the issue is that the bare headed cyclist feels the need to speak against hats more due to the prevailing media or "common sense" view that people should wear helmets. Whilst the wearer is more in-group and much like your average driver doesn't feel the need to the make a show of it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm not against helmets. I'm against me wearing a helmet and being told that I should wear one. My objection to helmets is practical. My head sweats buckets at the slightest provocation without adding an insulating layer of polystyrene over the top. But more generally if I considered wearing one I would have to ask myself why I wanted to engage in an activity that required me to armoured to any extent.
Posted 12 years ago # -
ditto...
additionally i've an oversized cranium -- its hard enough to find a cycling cap to fit, never mind a pokey hat.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@bax: I won't be asking you to volunteer for my fMRI study! Doing fMRI has made me realise how varied peoples head shapes are (quite annoying sometimes when trying to set up the scanner).
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm glad this thread has avoided the vitriol that some previous helmet ones had.
I think this one has drifted a bit from the original points that Spokes wrote.
"
Spokes will not, after this issue, publicise charity rides or other events involving helmet compulsion.We will also only circulate flyers and give website links if articles, adverts, etc are not helmet-dominated.
We call on other organisations concerned about public health to do the same.
"
Comments have mostly been about not publicising events where helmets are compulsory - obviously that is the aspect that the media picked up on.
Spokes is (this is an assumption) concerned that helmets are becoming 'normal'. I'm sure there is a fear that at some point someone/Government may want/try to make them compulsory.
I'm sure there is also a concern that compulsion will discourage (some) cycling.
There is some evidence that this is true - but (apparently - I don't read all the literature/websites!) evidence is not showing significant differences.
A think Spokes believe that 'having to wear a helmet' - for social pressure reasons - is putting people off from trying cycling - though again 'evidence' is far from clear.
Meanwhile in many European cities helmet use is low.
This may be because they have better/safer infrastructure or it may be that more people cycle (the better infrastructure will have an effect) and feel 'safer'. It could be that they have better legislation/enforcement/education/attitudes about driving.
Helmet use has risen a lot in the last 30 years.
This was one of the first ones available in the UK!
http://vanscyoc.net/blog/archives/737-Skid-Lid.html
Mountain Biking made a difference - many people where happy to wear them for what they considered to be a 'dangerous' activity. A lot of people new to cycling took up helmets because they feared they might fall off - or get knocked off.
Shops are of course happy to sell them and some will 'strongly advise'. Friends and relations will probably strongly advise too.
Ultimately it's personal choice. It's not that long since people wearing helmets were thought of as weird - because they were obviously 'cyclists'.
Riding a bike is now much more socially acceptable (but not completely!)
I can't decide whether Spokes is 'wise' to bring this up. It's perhaps a few years too late.
If people are wearing helmets because they believe 'it's not safe out there' perhaps they will do something about it.
Well they turned up to PoP28.
If infrastructure/road surfaces/driver behaviour improve, perhaps more people will choose not to wear helmets.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Finally made 'the' News
"
Ian Maxwell, an active member of the charity, said that cyclists may take less care when kitted out with helmets, and said they can cause as well as prevent injuries. He said a move to make them compulsory could force bikes off the road.
"
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/cycle-body-prompts-helmet-row-1-2345055
Spokes isn't a charity.
Wonder if IM actually said all that 'in so many words'.
Posted 12 years ago # -
So Spokes has put an issue on the agenda that wasn't even there. I do not think this was a battle that we needed to fight. Especially just when we were making progress on other fronts. Not helpful in any way shape or form.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Finally made 'the' News"
I though it had already made the news with the story linked at the start of this thread?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Who cares what the journalists or readers at Johnston Press think, anyway.
Their days are well and truly numbered.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"I though it had already made the news with the story linked at the start of this thread?"
That was SoS.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Shaun McDonald @smsm1
The ride requirements by British Cycling on rides like
http://www.goskyride.com/Search/Details?eventid=5830 really put me off them
12:25 PM - 8 Jun 12 via Twitter for Mac
1h GoSkyRide @GoSkyRide
@smsm1 Which requirements Shaun? Then only thing we ask is that under 18s wear a helmet!
57m Shaun McDonald @smsm1
@GoSkyRide that's one, Dutch/Danish kids don't wear helmets, it should be a choice. Also why can't a fast under five be on their own bike?
54m GoSkyRide @GoSkyRide
@smsm1 I hear you, and there are always exceptions, but when it comes to little kids we're extra cautious :)
"
Posted 12 years ago # -
Religion/culture trumps 'safety' as far as the Scouts are concerned.
From Policy, Organisation and Rules:
"Rule 9.71 Cycling
a. Cycle safety helmets must be worn by all cyclists in all organised Scout cycling events, except in the case of 9.71b.
b. A Sikh wearing a Turban may choose not to wear a cycle helmet. This does not apply to a Sikh wearing a Top Knot."It doesn't mention colanders.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Not sure how the Scouts expect to fit a top knot under a hat.
I wonder if we Latter Day Dudests have a head gear requirement? I'm sure it would be quite mellow and perhaps related to out door activities. I didn't bring a hat today as I didn't expect rain but I see that it is raining.
Why don't the Scouts have a get out for Muslim girls? I can see them having trouble fitting a hat on too.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I wonder if we Latter Day Dudests have a head gear requirement?
Or any religion at all? I hear there's a groundswell of followers of the Thirteenth Order of Noncompulsory Helmetists.
Interesting to note, with the twocapitals ride as flyered in the latest Spokes bundle, that the girl in the centre of the photograph is wearing one of the worst fitted helmets I've ever seen. If you're going to show them at all, for crying out loud make sure they're shown correctly.
Posted 12 years ago # -
How about Rastafarians with big dreadlocks? Do they have to wear helmets too? Mind you they probably wouldn't join the scouts anyway, but still... ;-)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Ian Maxwell, an active member of the charity, said that cyclists may take less care when kitted out with helmets ..."
So, there are irresponsible road using cyclists out there. And it just so happens that those are the ones who wear helmets. And a close reading is that all cyclists who wear helmets are susceptible to this. Aside from there being absolutely no evidence for this, and my honest observation counters this, my earlier suspicion that Spokes are just neither wise nor good when it comes to considering the effect of what they say on an audience outside their own circle. And that is just sad.
Posted 12 years ago # -
It's not true that there is absolutely no evidence for this. There is plenty of evidence to support the existence of a phenomenon called 'risk compensation' in general although studies seeking to establish the extent of it among cyclists are inconclusive - some studies find evidence of it among helmeted cyclists and others don't. The absence of clear evidence either way leaves the possibility open that, as Spokes say, some cyclists may take less care when helmeted.
Some reading. THere's a good summary of risk compensation here and John Adams, one of the main proponents of risk compensation has several blog entries on risk compensation here.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Intso - interesting stuff. I see this issue slightly differently from Ian Maxwell. Everyone assess risk differently, meaning some people may take extra risks when wearing a helmet while other (more cautious) people may only cycle because their helmet gives them that little extra bit of confidence to get on the bike.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Risk compensation, so is it the helmet that causes increased risk taking on the part of the rider, or the rider wearing the helmet ?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I suspect that the rider has to be responsible for his or her riding and to blame the increased risk taking to be down to wearing an inanimate object is missing the point totally.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Still rumbling on .... Maybe there is a rule that the forum has to engage in the helmet debate every six months? as CHdot speaketh - less vitriol than previous.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Maybe there is a rule that the forum has to engage in the helmet debate every six months?"
Strictly speaking this isn't about 'helmets' - it's about what Spokes thinks (and whether it should say what it thinks!)
Posted 12 years ago # -
Insto, thanks for the link - I trust you will allow me an inward groan that credence is still given to the Ian Walker "experiment", an idea worthy of exploration, but really no more than that.
But the inconclusiveness of this buttresses my general point.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I'm not sure how inconclusiveness supports your general point, particularly when your general point seemed to be that there was absolutely no evidence. If it's inconclusive then that suggests there is some evidence.
The inconclusiveness in relation to cycling is, I assume, what leads Spokes to express that point as a conditional "may take less care" rather than more definitely. It seems to me a reasonable point to make, that compelling a particular safety measure may not lead to the intended benefit because some people will offset the additional safety by taking additional risks.
Whatever the validity of cycling-specific research, the general point that some people take additional safety as a way of taking additional risks seems well established. Perhaps you disagree with the general idea or agree with the idea but feel that it can't apply to cyclists wearing helmets.
Posted 12 years ago # -
rember,
What don't you like about Walker's work?
Posted 12 years ago #
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