“A lot of (even most) home storage batteries started out as car batteries.
“So a battery may get 30-35 years use as it moves down the chain.“
Interesting
So this is all factored in to the repurpose/reuse cycle/flow??
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
"Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"
(677 posts)- Started 14 years ago by chdot
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Posted 2 years ago #
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"So this is all factored in to the repurpose/reuse cycle/flow??"
I suspect not, as home storage batteries are still a small scale (and newish) use case.
However as energy prices increase it's becoming more financially beneficial to install a 5 or 8 kwH home battery pack.
You can use with or without solar, and even without solar you can charge at night using very cheap grid energy and use that energy during day when grid expensive. Investment payback could be as little as 5 years on battery alone, may even make more sense financially than solar...Some companies will be all over this, eg Tesla who provide both car, and home storage battery solutions will know exactly how long a battery will last, suspect other companies new to EV not even thought about it yet - or care because the recycling is not in their business model.
So that battery that will only carry the 9 year old Nissan leaf 30 miles can still power your washing machine for another 10 or 20 years.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Another factor in the life span is the batteries are actively thermally managed in cars/home unlike the batteries in your phone/laptop which are allowed to get quite warm which can damage the electrolyte in the cell (and of course lead to the firey death of the battery)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Taking all the battery life mitigations on board (I was aware of most of them, just left the detail out for the sake of an admittedly simplistic comparison), there is still the issue of gradual degradation of the battery over time.
So our 9 year old Nissan Leaf didn't suddenly drop from maximum range (I've no idea what the original range of a 2012 model was, let's say 100 miles) to only 36 miles. It must have lost a proportion of its charge (and therefore range) every year. So there will have come a point where longer journeys were just not practical, probably after around 5 years.
I've no doubt newer EVs have improved range, better charging management, etc. than the original Leaf. But I still contend that, at least according to what I've read, we're probably talking a little over 5 years before many owners consider battery replacement or a new vehicle.
The aim of repurposing degraded EV batteries as domestic power storage is certainly laudable, but is only going to be practical for households where there is sufficient space, and willingness to set up all the connections, install solar panel or micro turbines, etc. To gain widespread benefit from such repurposing, there would have to be a scheme promoted by power supply utilities and EV manufacturers/servicing companies. I may be wrong but I don't see one at the moment.
As for the calls for more public charging points, this is a contentious issue, especially when it comes to government enabling or subsidy of the infrastructure. I'm not really sure what arguments there can be for yet more subsidy of private motorised transport. Then there's the question of where exactly the charging infrastructure is installed. On-street charging for example is highly problematic. Finally we have the issues of incompatible charging standards, which is a bit like the situation with any electronic gadget - even when standards are agreed, certain companies find a way of being incompatible to hook buyers into their own product ecosystems.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I think things like ex ev batteries will end up in a lot of homes, or used by the grid, as the price of used cells comes down with the scrapping of ev batteries over time.
Even if they're not joined to a micro generation system they would be a useful tool for balancing the grid with smart grid probably more so than ev's plugged in all the time once people realise how to manage their batteries or those who don't have a driveway.
Reintroducing tiered pricing for electricity would be a decent incentive for having a few kw/h of storage for "expensive" periods.
If people switch to a 5 year cycle for their cars that would be an improvement over the 3 year "replacement" cycle that is currently the norm. The price of used cars might increase with the addition of refurbishing the battery system but I don't think this is a deal breaker when cars should live longer with far fewer moving parts.
Posted 2 years ago # -
"ex ev batteries will end up in a lot of homes"
Yes, I think so too (will certainly end up in mine).
"Reintroducing tiered pricing for electricity"
You have supliers like Octopus energy who have tarrifs where you get 4 hours of off peak energy at 5p/kWh (enough to charge home and car battery at cheap rate), or 'maket cost' energy which sometimes -ve overnight. Peak can be 20 - 30p/Kwh, and only increasing.
You have an outlay of £3K - £6K for a battery pack, and save £600-£1200 a year (now) on electricity cost depending on usage. When electricity is 50p or £1 per Kwh that outlay will be a no brainer. Some people put in extra battery storage, charge it at 5p don't use it and sell it back to the grid @30p.
Look forward to when heating and hot water and car is all electric, and that saving will be multiplied. Add in day time Solar if you can afford it and you will have no or very little grid energy cost.
Solar + battery will be less about savings compared to energy cost now.
Actually wandering off my post - if you look at the title of the thread 'Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport? '. If you are a car driver currently paying £100 + a month in fuel, and you can now replace that with £5-£10 a month in home energy cost. Yes they are the future whether you likey or not....
Posted 2 years ago # -
Cars use far more energy than an average house uses in electricity so a degraded car battery will still provide more than enough power for an average, gas heated, household. In fact I would assume a used car battery is dismantled and the cells used to create multiple household batteries.
As well as energy requirements another reason for repurposing car batteries is that energy to weight and energy to volume are far less important for a household battery than a car battery.
For many if not the majority of properties the difference between a boiler sized battery and a wheelie bin sized battery is negligible and the weight different is irrelevant after installation. So a car battery which is only offering 50% or less of it's original capacity can be accommodated.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@steveo, "If people switch to a 5 year cycle for their cars that would be an improvement over the 3 year "replacement" cycle that is currently the norm. The price of used cars might increase with the addition of refurbishing the battery system but I don't think this is a deal breaker when cars should live longer with far fewer moving parts."
Agree up to a point. There are owners (possibly a minority) that buy a new car and keep it running for much longer. That will be possible only if drivers are prepared to put up with reduced range or dip into their pockets for battery replacement. So I would anticipate a higher rate of "churn" among car buyers than currently, which may be good for the manufacturers, etc. but not great for the planet. Also the market segment where people buy a used clunker and run it into the ground will be altered. As you say, prices for used vehicles may increase due to the requirement for a refurbed battery. OTOH if battery prices continue to fall (uncertain) then those drivers who prefer to buy used may be able to keep their vehicles running for longer than the petroleum fuelled equivalent. That's an unknown at the moment: the numbers of EVs sold to date is relatively small, and thus we don't know how reliable they'll be long term as a mass use commodity.
@Baldcyclist, "Yes they are the future whether you likey or not...."
Me no likey. Primarily because electric cars (in contrast to other types of vehicle) only solve one issue: emissions at source. They don't solve all the other problems that come along with mass car ownership/use. An electric car will be just as deadly to pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers; it will be just as inefficient a use of public space; and it currently requires more resources to manufacture than a petroleum car (this latter may change but not immediately). Indeed electric cars create a some new issues, including the siting of charging infrastructure, battery reuse/recycling, etc.
Posted 2 years ago # -
For EVs to have any effect on climate they will have to be adopted globally...
Cop26 stated...
• A broad coalition of countries, cities, car manufacturers and other stakeholders have said they will work to ensure that all new cars and vans will be zero emission globally by 2040.But, the energy and resources needed to carry our such a wholesale replacement of the millions of cars globally is maybe impossible and potentially a threat to the climate ?
Since my daughter moved outwith Europe I am much more aware of the 'make do and mend' culture in Africa. People just use whatever runs. Cars there are often much older and would be huge resistance to buying and EV and power from Eskom - a utility that can barely provide domestic power.
The trickle down and endless obsolescence from the richer North means there is a good market in older tech goods such as laptops & computers - partly due to that market growing over a longer period. Mobile phones of course can be newer as global tech has made so many that they have become affordable and fill a gap that landlines can't offer.An EV to someone on a very low salary has no advantage over a 10 year old Toyota (some come from Japan as they drive on same side). Most of the world is like this and will spend a bare minimum on a 'mobility tool'.
India and China went through using bicycles which were aspirational once but now ditched for 2 stroke motorbikes. Despite the climate health emergency with people chocking on the fumes caused by these in Bejing and Delhi there is only slight move back to using E-bikes or E-scooters AFAIK. In fact people continue to drive through the smog even though it is gridlocked.The North maybe thinks that ads showing people gliding through clean cities in their E-Volvos will persuade them to change their ways. I think it might only broaden the division between us as we look down on their polluting ways. I know China is doing more and has some examples of cities with E-buses. Each nation will probably have a showcase project but getting EVs to cascade down to the less well off is a hard ask.
Posted 2 years ago # -
“but getting EVs to cascade down to the less well off is a hard ask”
All the more reason not to pretend/expect the future for everyone to be EV SUVs.
Unrealistic aspirations (created by those with money to make) create/extend the problem.
But Govs don’t have the imagination/‘bravery’ to confront businesses OR voters.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@LaidBack, situation sounds similar to countries in the Balkans until recently. Twenty years ago you would see a lot of old Lada, Moskvitch cars and ancient diesel buses and lorries on the roads. Gradually these were replaced by second hand European vehicles, mostly older models of Mercedes, VW, Renault/Opel which no longer met emissions standards for the West. As integration with EU grew apace a lot more new vehicles. I can imagine a similar cascade of older vehicles to Africa happens regularly. Also in Balkans old landlines became decrepit in the decade after Socialism so everyone had the latest mobile phones quite early on, even before people in UK. They just skipped the bit in the 1980s/1990s where we got fancier landline phones and went straight for the mobile networks.
Used to be parallels with the African scenario in remoter parts of Scotland too. I recall the northern isles of Orkney in the 1980s: due to infrequent ferry service and expense of bringing vehicles to the outer islands (needed to be craned out of the hold, no ro-ro back then) people used to just run cars until they fell apart.
For many types of goods re-use or extended use is more sustainable than renew/disposal/recycling. Embedded emissions need to be factored in, not just emissions from use.
Posted 2 years ago # -
“
Chinese companies dominate mining, battery and manufacturing sectors, and amid human rights concerns, Europe and the US are struggling to keep pace
“
Posted 2 years ago # -
EVReview Ireland do bike reviews as well.
"How cool is that?"I'll follow them on Twitter. Guys from Dublin at UA event reckoned that their country was open to 'more greeness'.
Ireland of course not bogged down with oil and gas industry and can use it's smaller resources. Plus being in EU helps if you want decent choice of cargo bikes.Posted 2 years ago # -
Plenty of money at RBS Gogarburn for EVs. EVs chargers now on every (surface, at least) parking space in sight.
Not so much for bike paths. Don't think they even spent a few pennies on upgrading the convoluted, awkward, leaf- and stick- strewn path to the site.
We know where the priorities lie, clearly. Meh.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Well, Thatcher supposedly said this in 1986*:
"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure"
By extension, I suppose we could see this applied to bicycles too, perhaps even more so. Particularly by management types in financial services, one group who presumably owe a great deal to the Thatcher era and everything it stood for.
* - As ever with such quotes, there's some dispute as to whether it originated with the most quoted speaker. What seems clear the person who first said it was a member of England's elite, so effectively it makes little difference.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Plenty of money at RBS Gogarburn for cyclists too, with a free-to-use pool bike scheme, free e-bike chargers and excellent facilities for cyclists. It was Scotland's first 'Cycle Friendly Employer Plus' site. People at Gogarburn (but not the bank itself) got Gogar Station Road resurfaced and marked with bike lanes, and gave the developers of the potential replacement for the stinky chicken farm a very hard time, extracting commitments for improved provision for cyclists.
It's not really up to the bank to fix the rubbish bike lanes that lead to the site, I'd say. The bank, and people who work there, can lobby for improvements (as I believe they do) but shouldn't be expected to pay for things not on their land.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@crowriver: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher#Misattributed
(Note that the Alistair Cooke referenced in the above is not the one who used to do Letter from America on BBC radio. Apart from anything else, that one died in 2004.)
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm willing to bet that this awkward dog-leg, leaf- and stick strewn section lies on RBS land:
https://goo.gl/maps/6t3TPQTPkBdYA5UFA
And even so, RBS chose to locate themselves miles from any population centre, in a "drive to" out-of-town location. They damn well ought to stump up for some active travel improvements to and from their site (especially if they can afford hundreds of chargers for carbon-emitting EVs - 27 tonnes of carbon in the manufacture of every EV). Frankly I find it disgusting there's so much money to burn on EVs, yet they can't even improve an awkward bike path...
It's the whole attitude of "well, cycling, it's not our problem" is the exact reason the infrastructure is so terrible in this country
Posted 2 years ago # -
The path and the pavement it is connected to don't appear to be adopted. Slightly surprised that the overpass isn't either!
Posted 2 years ago # -
In their defence (& this route was part of my daily commute) RBS did a far better job of sweeping/gritting/clearing snow on their bits of the path than the council ever did.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@jonty, from memory there was a bit of legal wrangling when they built the bridge. The council wanted to install a sign welcoming people to Edinburgh rather than the RBS logo. However as RBS had paid for the bridge they were allowed to install their advert.
I guess that had RBS put it forwards for adoption they would no longer be able to use it for advertising.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Ah right - I do remember that - just slightly surprised that they wouldn't want rid of a big liability like a road bridge but maybe it's worth it (or maybe they can get it adopted later on when it's starting to need more repairs...)
Posted 2 years ago # -
@neddie, exactly. RBS used to have offices in various locations in or near the city centre, located close to railway stations, bus routes and within easy reach by foot or two wheels for most city residents. They chose to go out of town for their global HQ; they chose to prioritise driving over every other mode of transport; they chose one of the most hostile locations possible to walk or cycle to; and one of the most inconvenient to reach by public transport until local and national government spent millions on tram and rail links nearby.
So I'm afraid I'm not buying the cycle-friendly employer line.
Addendum: from the Herald.
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The Gogarburn site was bought by RBS in June 2001, with the vision of building an American-style campus with all the services and facilities needed to accommodate up to 3250 members of staff and designed to create a vibrant business community.
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And we all know how cycle friendly American corporate campuses are.
Posted 2 years ago # -
“
While zero-emission vehicles have an important role to play in helping us achieve our carbon reduction targets, the wider dis-benefits of using private vehicles mean that our target to reduce car kilometres by 20 per cent includes all types of private car. In line with the NTS2’s Sustainable Travel Hierarchy, switching from petrol or diesel to private zero-emission vehicles is likely to be the optimal solution only where more sustainable travel options are unavailable. Interventions to encourage vehicle- switching should therefore ensure that options to switch to digital or local access as well as more sustainable transport modes such as electric cargo cycle, public transport season ticket or car club membership are facilitated and promoted ahead of a switch to a private zero-emission vehicle.
“
Posted 2 years ago # -
The Austrian Government recently launched a nationwide all-modes public transport "KlimaTicket", which costs £910 for a whole year of travel anywhere in the country. You can travel with up to four kids aged six to 15 on your ticket for a one-off payment of £91. Tickets can be paid for monthly at no extra cost. Cheaper regional tickets are also available.
When Scotland introduces something similar, we will know they are serious about reducing car use. Until then, it is just more words.
Posted 2 years ago # -
As we predicted in March 2020, the pandemic all but killed public transport. Until that fear of being couped up in a box full of unknowns has recinded you can make public transport as cheap as you want and few will be interested.
I think it was take 5 years to reverse. Until then roads more conjested than ever.
Posted 2 years ago # -
However, the pandemic did offer new possibilities. Now we can work at home like we never could really before, so although people may drive when they go into the office, there is no real need for many to do that all that often.
Posted 2 years ago #
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