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"Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"

(699 posts)
  • Started 15 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from Arellcat
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  1. deckard112
    Member

    @le-soigneur it's a significant saving based on my personal financial situation. So in that regard it makes sense to me (others may experience different results ;) )

    Interesting view on weight though, I had a quick look out of curiosity and the difference in weight between the standard and hybrid was only 80kg. Difference in co2 emissions was 139g/km against 42g/km for the hybrid.

    I think if I wanted to get a lower co2 figure I'd have to go full electric which I did consider but with work I have to travel long distances so the hybrid made more sense.

    (disclaimer - I don't work for Mitsibushi!!!)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Difference in co2 emissions was 139g/km against 42g/km for the hybrid.

    Unless you can recharge the battery in a hybrid purely from braking action, e.g. pure electric low speed operation followed by braking, there is little advantage in total fossil fuel consumption compared with a petrol vehicle of similar size and power output, because additional fuel must be burned to charge the battery and drive the wheels.

    If you go for a pure electric car, the electricity to charge the car is generally from the UK grid mix, which last year was still greatly propped up by coal, for emissions of 0.50 kgCO2e/kWh. For the same energy requirement, petrol releases 0.25 kg of CO2 equivalent. If you account for energy conversion efficiencies, infernal combustion from tank to wheel comes out at about 15-20% at best.

    Obviously running an electric car from renewable energy has zero operating losses, but the motors in the car run at about 60-70% efficiency; electricity transmission and distribution is about 92% efficient; and UK grid is about 25% efficient (coal + gas + nuclear, mainly). So you get about 16% total efficiency, rising to 35% if the electricity is from CCGT. If it's renewable electricity, you can reach 65% total efficiency, and if you can use onsite renewables and eliminate transmission and distribution you can get close to 70%.

    If the plug-in EV has a range extender to recharge the battery, as long as it's 2nd or 3rd generation, and thus essentially a constant-speed optimised power unit still running off fossil fuels, you have about 70% efficiency for that stage as well, and total efficiency is still high because the power unit is not incurring drivetrain losses.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. steveo
    Member

    doesn't matter, just read Arellcat's post properly.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. neddie
    Member

    My understanding is that the Mitsibushi PHEV is a plug-in hybrid that can run on battery power alone for up to 30 miles (when charged from the grid obviously).

    I'm not sure how the 42g/km is calculated, but they must make an assumption about how much driving is pure electric and how much is using the IC engine.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. LaidBack
    Member

    If you go for a pure electric car, the electricity to charge the car is generally from the UK grid mix, which last year was still greatly propped up by coal

    If you plug in near Pitlochry you'll be using hydro power from Tummel Garry though! ;-)

    I know it's all on national grid with another Interconnexion France Angleterre being planned.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. deckard112
    Member

    If you're building in the energy use to charge the vehicle and the delivery method to supply the electricity, then when comparing to IC surely you should also include the energy in extracting fossil fuels, processing it into fuel, then delivering that fuel to the forecourt. However I think at that stage you can start to analyse matters to the nth degree.

    All other things being equal, comparing my current diesel car at 95g/km circa 52mpg (which is only three years old and therefore 'modern') to the PHEV, I will make both a financial saving, a fuel saving and without doubt a co2 saving. As I've said earlier, it benefits 'my' situation.

    Until an electric car can deliver the range it's not an option for me.

    "additional fuel must be burned to charge the battery and drive the wheels" - not quite correct in the PHEV which can run in pure EV mode for up to 32 miles on a full electric charge. In my earlier post I explained that many of my journeys are short and much less than 32 miles. Therefore I could potentially run the car in pure EV mode until such time as I needed to do a long trip (and where fast-charging mid-way wasn't possible).

    Electric cars (and hybrids) are still at the early stages of development. Range will no doubt extend and when that happens I'll likely go that way. Until that time I believe I'm making a step in the right decision to go hybrid rather than IC.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. Darkerside
    Member

    I understand that over the entire supply chain there's very little difference. However, I'd much rather be cycling behind something electric than a diesel, so on a local level they seem to make sense.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. sallyhinch
    Member

    There must be times of the day when our power is made up of more renewables and therefore the best time to charge something (be it bike or car). I know that there are spikes in electricity use eg around breakfast time, and a lot of our power generation capacity is built around meeting those spikes, rather than for the average load. So potentially, if you're charging things outwith those peak times, you could help to smooth demand, which may be better for renewables (like hydro for example)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    "There must be times of the day when our power is made up of more renewables"

    Like during the recent strong winds for example: the turbines in Fife I saw from the train yesterday were spinning like nobody's business!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @sallyhinch

    'Outwith'? The McForce is strong in this one....

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. crowriver
    Member

    One of my favourite usages: I never fail to find an opportunity to slot it into a sentence, notwithstanding circumstances outwith my control.

    Next up: porage. This Scots sounding concoction is apparently a false usage cooked up by canny oat floggers Scotts for their tartan clad, kilt birling, hammer throwing brand of breakfast munching product. I like it though, and use in preference to porridge even when it's generic, unbranded oats.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. sallyhinch
    Member

    Outwith, like dreich, is too useful a word for the Scots to keep to themselves so I am hereby co-opting it.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    Re: porage. Apparently:

    "If you buy Scott’s oats the packet tells you you are eating ‘porage’. This is a word made up by A & R Scott in Glasgow when they launched Scott’s Porage Oats in 1914, and combined the old Scots word poray with the French word potage."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    OTOH:

    "the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) lists:

    porage
    porradge
    porredge
    porridge
    porrage
    parridge
    parritch

    And, sense this word is an altered form of pottage, poddish, those should be considered also.
    Here are some "porage" citations from OED.

    c1532 G. Du Wes Introd. Fr. in Palsgr. 1070 Ye have alredy eaten your porage.
    1550 Lever Serm. (Arb.) 122 Hauyng a fewe porage made of the brothe of the same byefe, wyth salte and otemell.
    1573 Tindale's Obed. Chr. Man Wks. 166 If the porage [1528 podech] be burned .. or the meate ouer rosted, we say The bishop hath put his foote in the potte."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. crowriver
    Member

    "Ye have alredy eaten your porage" must have been the original version of "You'll have had your tea, then?"

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. @sallyhinch Indeed this is one of the reasons why the German government is eager to support electric cars (without much success...). Germany now often has too much power and the market price becomes negative (i.e. utilities have to pay other countries to take up excess power).

    There is a lot of research on grid storage. Suitable locations for pumped water storage are almost all used up, and other technologies are not really yet advanced enough for large-scale use. There are pilot projects using various batteries.

    Cars have several "advantages" as grid storage:

    • Most are only operated for perhaps an hour per day and could be left plugged in for the rest of the time.
    • There are so many cars. Let's say half of Germany's 40 million cars are electric, and we can use 10% of their 50kWh battery, that's 100GWh storage. That's enough to supply electricity for the whole country for about an hour.
    • Batteries and their infrastructure (space, charging electronics etc) are paid for by the car owner, whereas other grid storage has to be financed by the grid operators.
    • Old car batteries that may perhaps have half the capacity are no longer good for cars, so they will be very cheaply available and are still good enough to be used for a couple of years in grid storage facilities.

    Interesting historical note: West Berlin had a huge battery installation because it couldn't rely on the East German grid. I think it was good old fashioned lead batteries, cost a fortune but was necessary due to the political situation.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. crowriver
    Member

    I seem to remember too that there was a huge coal fired power station on the way in from the airport, nearer the centre than would be the case in most cities?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. @crowriver you mean in Berlin? Quite possible, although that may not have been the biggest environmental worry with all the East German lignite power stations in the neighbourhood.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. crowriver
    Member

    Maybe this one? It's been a while so not sure I remember correctly.

    Or this one?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    Interesting (to me anyway) article on the re-unification of Berlin's electricity grids:

    http://news.vattenfall.com/en/article/times-surge

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. Update from Germany: Apparently there was a meeting yesterday in the Chancellor's office with the Minister for Economy and industry experts on how to promote electric cars.

    The target, set in 2009, is to have 1 million electric cars in Germany by 2020.

    In fact, there are 31311 registered cars at the end of 2015, and 12363 were sold in 2015; with these numbers it will take about 100 years to reach the target.

    Minister for Economy Gabriel wants to support buying a car with 5000 Euro, Finance Minister Schäuble refuses this (apparently with support from the Chancellor) as he opposes interfering in free market forces.

    Since June 2015, local authorities have the option to allow electric cars to use the bus lanes and waive parking fees, but very few councils have decided to actually do that.

    So Germany is about to fail the targets for electric cars even more spectacularly than Scotland fails its targets for active travel. Find this quite fascinating and rather surprising, as the German government is normally quite happy to pump loads of money into the car industry and has no reason to be stingy in the current economic climate.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. Kim
    Member

    Trying to get funding for my Cargo Bike Club is proving to be rather difficult. If it does come off and it does kick start a cargo bike culture in Edinburgh (which is entirely possible), it would make for genuine low/zero carbon transport.

    In the mean time there in always cargo bike hire from EdFoC, which is a first step.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. neddie
    Member

    http://litmotors.com/c1/

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    That looks a bit like a fancy Sinclair C5. I get that there's a "gyro stability system"*. But...what happens if you fall over? You can't exactly put your foot down like on a bike.

    * - "The “secret sauce” of the C-1 is our patented gyroscopic stability system. We use electronically-controlled control moment gyroscopes (CMGs) to generate thousands of ft-lbs of torque. The gyros are controlled by the vehicle, allowing it to lean itself into and out of turns, and stay upright when stopped–even in a collision! Our gyro system is the key to bringing the safety and interface of a car to a two-wheeled platform."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. jdanielp
    Member

    "...with room for a passenger when needed. The interior is surprisingly spacious..."

    The accompanying image suggests otherwise.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. LaidBack
    Member

    "Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"

    Edinburgh's Lord Provost certainly thinks so.
    BMW E-drive with SO plate - I was in collecting the new 'On Foot, By Bike' branded maps.

    The BMW i3 - Lord Provost's New Car by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. acsimpson
    Member

    Even electric vehicles manufacturers could be fiddling the emissions figures according to this article. Although as we know there are low carbon ways to produce electricity. I personally favour them even if their emissions are higher as the emissions are generally not where people live and work.

    http://www.techspot.com/news/64063-singapore-first-tesla-model-s-owner-hit-11000.html

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. jdanielp
    Member

    Tesla launched their Model 3 last night which they are referring to as "our most affordable car yet", a subtle shift in wording from it being their "affordable" car for the masses. That may be another few years down the line...

    https://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/model3

    Slightly guiltily, I have to admit that I reserved one yesterday (the deposit is fully refundable though so I may well bail out) so I'm interested to see what the next 2-3 years brings in terms of an actual production vehicle and, more importantly, associated infrastructure.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. neddie
    Member

    Very nice jdanielp.

    I like how there is no grill - no need for massive amounts of air to be drawn in to cool an inefficient engine.

    Pity they didn't reduce drag further by removing the door mirrors and replacing them with cameras.

    Can I buy yours when its 3 years old and you're ready to get a new one?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. jdanielp
    Member

    @edd1e_h I seem to remember reading that Tesla wanted to do exactly that with the mirrors but were not allowed to due to the (presumably archaic) safety regulations. Bah.

    I'm hoping that if I do go through with buying one, then this will be the only car that I'll ever buy new and the second I'll have owned. You have first refusal if I sell!

    Posted 8 years ago #

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