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"Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"

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  • Started 15 years ago by chdot
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  1. chdot
    Admin

    “

    How did Norway become the electric car superpower? Oil money, civil disobedience – and Morten from a-ha

    More than 90% of new cars sold in Norway are electric. And it all started with some pop stars driving around in a jerry-rigged Fiat Panda

    …

    Norway’s EV success has something to do with the size of its population and its politics, says Bu: “We’re a small country, so there’s a lot of collaboration between civil society and the political system. It’s not difficult for us to have meetings with parliamentarians, so it wasn’t just a top-down situation; it was bottom-up, too.” Because Norway’s proportional, multi-party system often produces coalition and minority governments, emissions haven’t become politicised, as they have in other countries – there is enthusiasm for EVs across the spectrum. The target of making all new cars zero emissions by 2025 was supported by all parties.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/mar/12/how-did-norway-become-the-electric-car-superpower-oil-money-civil-disobedience-and-morten-from-a-ha

    Posted 8 months ago #

  2. Greenroofer
    Member

    Currently in that London with my Brompton. A lot of the vehicles are electric now and it's quite disconcerting: they have a habit of creeping up on you silently...

    Posted 8 months ago #

  3. Tulyar
    Member

    I note a possible issue with larger electric vehicles (ie motor cars with more than 8 seats that happen to weigh 12-14 Tons & are 10-12 m long 2.55m wide & up to 4.4m high)

    These have highest pedestrian hit rate per vehicle per year than any class of vehicle, and operators actively look to get pedestrians close to their vehicles, but its not only on the streets - a recent fatality in Hemel Hempstead involved a cleaner walking on the operating area, who was struck by a driver reversing when they failed to notice the low speed movement, indicating that as more buses and coaches are moving to electric drive, there may need to be a closer enforcement or even delivery of operating protocols, especially on bus stations and depots, with vehicle movements in limited space, with staff on foot also moving around.

    Posted 8 months ago #

  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    So, my 15 year old midlife crisis seems to spend more time broken than working and essentially costs £30 to go anywhere now.

    We have had a good experience with my wife's electric car (not the govt loan as discussed above) and how cheap it is to run that I'm considering getting rid of the midlife crisis convertible (I will miss it so much, maybe one last summer) and buying an older EV, looked at a 2019 eGolf today, and maybe also a Leaf of same vintage.

    Anyway interesting conversation at both dealers we were in today. I asked what the premium on the eGolf was compared to a petrol Golf and dealer told me it was cheaper, and said he had a similar aged 1.5 petrol which was £500 more expensive than the eGolf.

    Also Vauxhall told me their electric Corsa's were heavily discounted as they couldn't get rid of them.

    Bit of a change from last year when we got our car, amd were told they couldn't get enough of them. The difference a year makes.

    Anyway a 2nd hand electric car seemsto make even more sense if they are now at price parity with combustion equivalents. Wonder if that trend will continue?

    Posted 8 months ago #

  5. Dave
    Member

    Ours now 13 years old. It's still clinging on but north of 500 a year in maintenance as various things stop working. If it lasts until summer 25 then the £10k purchase price will annualise to a nice round thousand. Somehow I don't think we'll find a traditionally shaped estate at 30k miles for 10k this time :(

    Posted 8 months ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/mar/25/are-electric-cars-too-heavy-for-british-roads-bridges-and-car-parks

    Posted 8 months ago #

  7. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "then the £10k purchase price will annualise to a nice round thousand"

    I'm torn, mines is an old BMW, and so they start to become collectable at the age mine is - but also cost a lot to maintain, mines already £500-£1K a year in maintenance (worst year was £2.5K).

    Heart says keep, brain says get rid whilst it's still good.

    Upside is that although as a trade-in it's book price is £2K, they are swapping for £5K ish on autotrader, and are still sought after. A £5K selling price after 8 years ownership, and £10K starting price would sweeten the loss a bit, and the equity would make a 4/5 year old electric car <£10K.
    (I think I'm sold on the eGolf idea even though range only about 125 miles, would be fine for what I need as a runarround).

    Other consideration, is just now I have no finance, just repairs, VED, insurance + Petrol. Where new car would cost £200 -£230 a month.

    Current car does less than 3K miles annually

    I can do man maths and persuade myself it would be cost neutral with new car, with no VED, and £5 instead of £50 fuel bill, and cheaper insurace. Reality is it would probably cost £70 more than currently paying.

    However, I would know that when I started my journey I'm likely to get to the end of it, as at now it's a bit of a lottery as to whether the BM will break down or not. Maybe that is worth £70?

    Posted 8 months ago #

  8. neddie
    Member

    £8k left to pay on the mortgage. Have been able to accelerate mortgage payments and dump a huge amount into my pension as car running costs have been £0 for the last 3 years.

    And how would I afford to take my family 1st class on the train, if I were paying for expensive personal heavy machinery?

    I am I doing this man maths right?

    Posted 8 months ago #

  9. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "£8k left to pay on the mortgage. Have been able to accelerate mortgage payments"

    Great stuff.:)

    When we bought our house, I kept my bachelor flat and rented it out for 10 years. That had a similar impact on reducing the mortgage on the house. :)

    Posted 8 months ago #

  10. Dave
    Member

    Yes, we've done quite well in relative terms by having no car until our mid 20s and only bought two cars in total (now in 40s). This discussion comes up at work a lot - I see it as something like a hoover, you can live without one (though I don't plan to) but can't bring any enthusiasm for the process of buying and paying for one.

    I think as long as we don't have any connection to town or the local high schools that are both streetlit and 20mph limit there's no real prospect of going car free though.

    Posted 8 months ago #

  11. fimm
    Member

    I've never owned a car...

    Posted 8 months ago #

  12. neddie
    Member

    The amount of hardworking taxpayers’ money we’re having to spend policing people’s expensive machinery they’ve just dumped in the street. Is there no end to the harm caused by cars?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/31/police-in-england-and-wales-fail-to-catch-any-car-thieves-in-100-neighbourhoods

    Posted 8 months ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/03/how-much-is-elon-musk-to-blame-for-tesla-sales-slip

    Posted 8 months ago #

  14. LaidBack
    Member

    Edinburgh Reporter is very upbeat tho! I need a bit of this optimism for the e-cargo bike business which is pretty quiet at moment.
    Energy Saving Trust Loans have been halted into next financial year which doesn't help. Or maybe halted for good?

    https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2023/10/scottish-ev-success-stories-how-scotland-is-embracing-electric-vehicles/

    Yes article is a bit alternative reality!

    Posted 8 months ago #

  15. neddie
    Member

    Why do these "EV" articles never mention electric bikes? They are literally an "electric vehicle" - and far more affordable and practical

    Posted 8 months ago #

  16. neddie
    Member

    Salary sacrifice schemes have been particularly effective in Scotland, allowing employees to give up part of their pre-tax salary in exchange for a greener mode of transport, resulting in savings of up to 60% on a new electric car.

    Yet another enormous subsidy being given to the damaging motor industry - those lost taxes could have paid for more police, better NHS, schools, etc...

    Posted 8 months ago #

  17. Baldcyclist
    Member

    OK, so as predicted, bought an electric Golf as my runaround. 5 years old, but with only 20,000 miles on clock.

    I was a little worried about range of the 5 year old batteries. We decided to go a wee day trip to Oban to test range out. Journey is 118 miles one way, max 'real' range of car (at new) is 145 miles so I didn't expect to reach destination on a single change.

    Put the car into Eco + and set off in yesterday's miserable rain. Got to the Welly stop, and thought, touch and go, shall we risk. Decision made easier by a queue at the chargers, so decided to go. There's a charger at Lochawe if we need it. Anyway arrived in Oban with 16 miles to spare. Car did 4.3 miles/KW/h, and I was astounded.

    Only mishap was Google maps sent us into someone's front drive for the first charging point, and so we had to find another.

    Charged the car to 100% whilst out for lunch, did some stuff arround Oban in the afternoon, and came home without need to charge. Overall 4.1miles/kWh.

    I was impressed with the wee thing, though TBF I'd have had a much more fun drive in the old midlife crisis (I'm still pine'ing for it. In comparison to the BMW with it's 19mpg and tiny fuel.tank, it would also have needed a fuel stop for that journey, albeit a much more expensive one.

    Posted 8 months ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Electric vehicle industry says spring data shows installations are keeping pace with rising battery sales

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jul/15/electric-vehicle-ev-chargers-uk-installations

    Posted 4 months ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/10/his-rhetoric-has-made-tesla-toxic-is-elon-musk-driving-away-his-target-market

    Posted 3 months ago #

  20. acsimpson
    Member

    I know that, if I were to buy an EV, Tesla would not be on the table. In much the same way I didn't consider Dyson when replacing my hoover.

    Posted 3 months ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Donald Trump has for months denigrated electric vehicles, arguing their supporters should “rot in hell” and that assisting the nascent industry is “lunacy”. He now appears to have somewhat shifted his view thanks to the support of Elon Musk, the world’s richest person.

    “I’m for electric cars, I have to be because Elon endorsed me very strongly,” Trump, the Republican nominee for US president, told supporters at a rally in Atlanta, Georgia, on Saturday.

    The transactional nature of this relationship with Musk was made clear by the former president and convicted business fraudster, however. “So I have no choice,” said Trump, who then went on to say that electric vehicles were suitable for a “small slice” of the population and that “you want every type of car imaginable” to be available.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/aug/05/trump-endorses-electric-vehicles-elon-musk

    Posted 3 months ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/sep/03/uk-electric-car-drivers-per-mile-vehicle-taxes-campaign-for-better-transport

    Posted 3 months ago #

  23. neddie
    Member

    Pay-per-mile is a terrible idea, a blunt instrument that simply replicates the system we already have (fuel duty) on fossil-burning cars, and applies it to electric cars.

    It will penalise those living in remote areas, that genuinely have to drive long distances on often uncongested roads. It will do nothing to improve congestion, or encourage public transport use where that is available.

    A far more equitable system would be pay-per-use with "performance pricing", where you pay according to road type, (expected) congestion levels, availability of public transport, and distance. The prices should be independent of the car's powerplant, with fossil-burners ultimately paying more by virtue of the existing fuel duty.

    Posted 3 months ago #

  24. Morningsider
    Member

    @neddie - just such a scheme was proposed by an expert group convened by the UK Department of Transport...20 years ago:

    https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/gla_migrate_files_destination/DfT%20road%20pricing%20feasibility%20study.pdf

    Posted 3 months ago #

  25. neddie
    Member

    Meanwhile:

    Sizewell C nuclear plant to get £5.5bn taxpayer subsidy amid investor uncertainty

    https://eandt.theiet.org/2024/09/02/sizewell-c-nuclear-plant-get-ps55bn-taxpayer-subsidy-amid-investor-uncertainty

    There's a bit of a clue here: No one wants to invest privately in nukes because they are an uneconomic, inflexible, un-insurable, slow-to-build, finite-resource-consuming form of generation with multiple problems. And a bl**dy liability in the event of war.

    The same money would go multiple times further on renewables or energy efficency.

    Sizewell C will play an important role in backing up renewable energy in the switch away from fossil fuels

    is highly misleading - nukes can't back up renewables because they can't be switched off quickly enough - so instead they end up displacing renewables (wind turbines get switched off instead when there is surplus generation)

    Posted 3 months ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Dieselgate was back in the headlines this week at the start of the trial of former VW chief executive Martin Winterkorn, but things look different now for the electric car market, with some carmakers rowing back on previous ambitions as sales stagnate. Volvo on Wednesday added to the sense of a European industry retrenching, as it ditched a target to sell only electric cars by 2030.

    “

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/sep/05/vw-slams-production-into-reverse-as-industry-faces-battles-on-all-sides

    Posted 3 months ago #

  27. neddie
    Member

    Could it be that sales are stagnating because they've forced larger, more profitable, more expensive vehicles on people?

    £30k starting point for a mobile living room, I mean c'mon...

    Meanwhile, China are creating basic electric models at ~£6000...

    Posted 3 months ago #

  28. gembo
    Member

    I love those tiny Citroens

    Posted 3 months ago #

  29. mcairney
    Member

    The Ami? Wasn't that the one which toppled over in Monaco?

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

    Not sure I'd trust electric windows in a French car nevermind an electric engine!

    Posted 2 months ago #

  30. neddie
    Member

    He banged his head and needed a few stitches...

    Why wasn't he wEariNg a helmet? HelmEtS for All car drIvers! Now!

    Posted 2 months ago #

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