I would love to see on-street charge points rolled out (it would suit those of us who live in flats) but I sincerely hope we don't end up with this sort of cack-handed implementation...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
"Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"
(707 posts)- Started 15 years ago by chdot
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Posted 6 years ago #
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“With traffic and poor air quality affecting many people … we need fewer vehicles, not just cleaner vehicles,” says Rachel White, senior policy and political advisor at sustainable transport group Sustrans. “Making it harder to walk and reducing access on our already crowded pavements doesn’t help more people to make every day journeys by foot.”
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Things that CEC doesn’t seem to understand generally - even before any major charging points rollout.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I spotted a 'G Whizz' for the first time this morning. It is definitely an example of an electric 'weirdsmobile' car although the compactness is to be applauded at some level.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Here's a thought:
If the fuel costs are negligible, then all the costs of running an EV are fixed (the only exceptions being parking charges and road tolls, where available).
If all the costs are fixed and generally paid for up front, then the incentive is to use the vehicle as much as possible.
Add this up across a future of everyone owning an EV and I can only see this being a recipe for worsening congestion & urban sprawl beyond compare. After all, we know from the US (where fuel prices are highly variable on the price of oil), that the lower the fuel prices, the more driving there is.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@neddie that is a point of concern that I haven't really seen discussed elsewhere. Certainly, if I were to end up acquiring an electric car (which is only likely to happen if I move out of the city centre) I can only imagine that I would end up travelling by train rather less. I like to think that I would still continue to cycle as much though.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I'm not sure how long fuel costs could remain negligible. It's not like we get electricity for free. Surely a lot of the free charging stuff is in effect an introductory offer for early adopters?
Posted 6 years ago # -
apparently, a Tesla Model S (2013) can travel 4.717 kilometers per 1 kWh.
Price of a kWh of electricity in the UK is around 13 or 14 pence. So that fuel cost works out currently around 3p per km driven in an EV (4.8p per mile).
Electricity prices only seem to be going up at the moment, so look to that cost per distance travelled rising.
An average petrol fuel saloon will be more expensive to run per km or mile on fuel costs.
Posted 6 years ago # -
@PS for those who can charge at home using off-peak energy tariffs or who have domestic energy generation, fuel costs should remain negligible for the foreseeable future. Like you say, however, there will surely be a tipping point of electric car adoption at which point free public chargers will no longer be free, but they will then have to compete with the cost of domestic electricity in any case so that should keep the costs below those for internal combustion. This should also be helped by the UK energy mix gradually getting greener, assuming savings are passed to consumers.
Posted 6 years ago # -
It could get politically interesting if demand is close to supply. Can we also expect cheap gas to continue, given supply issues + greenhouse gas concerns? Will that move more to electric heating? And surely politicians would put household supplies above personal transport?
Posted 6 years ago # -
It would be an interesting technologically challenge to ensure a domestic supply intended for heating isn't diverted to a car.
Although the electricity cost per mile is negligible there is also time to charge plus battery degradation to take into account. It's unlikely we'll see people driving to London for the weekend in an EV anytime soon.
Likewise if your battery warranty (and finance) only allows you 12K miles per year there is a large incentive not to drive it too far.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I have to admit I'm not all in favour of free charging beyond an initial period (and nor will the authorities be as they won't want to miss out on taxation income).
However I might be convinced if the scheme is extended, as the logic behind it would appear to demand, to free food for cyclists☺
Posted 6 years ago # -
@Blueth that seems reasonable :)
Posted 6 years ago # -
> However I might be convinced if the scheme is extended, as the logic behind it would appear to demand, to free food for cyclists☺
My parents have recently taken the plunge and gone for a sole electric car. The other day my dad sent my sister and me a gloating message about fuel prices going up as we both still have ICE cars - but as I use my bike far more often, I replied with an article about electricity prices going up followed by picture of a REDUCED packet of empire biscuits I was about to buy at the shops...
Posted 6 years ago # -
@jonty which one did they go for out of interest?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Posted 6 years ago #
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@Ed1 different times.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Times have changed but politics hasn't. The Transport minister talks about "balance" and "consultations".
The Head of BSM says some interesting things: "It's a shame that a driving licence is seen to be a right not a privilege" and then later "In the future private motoring and the ownership of private motor cars will be geared towards leisure motoring... and it will I hope become a mater of course that on your way to business you will use public transport."
Posted 6 years ago # -
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BP, one of the world’s leading oil and gas companies, lobbied Labour MSP Claudia Beamish at a wider “discussion dinner” at which she was present, touching on subjects including energy storage and electric vehicles.
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Posted 6 years ago # -
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The new proposal from the US Transportation Department and the EPA would freeze fuel efficiency standards at 2020 levels through 2026, and require dramatically fewer electric vehicles as more people continue to drive gasoline-powered vehicles.
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Posted 6 years ago # -
The new proposal from the US Transportation Department and the EPA would freeze fuel efficiency standards at 2020 levels through 2026."
Diesel gate may have made it harder for American targets but that possibly a good thing for the people living in cities as diesel car sales had seen some growth, may have been easiest way to achieve target. American has focused more on local pollution than carbon emissions.
The planned low emissions zones may still be worse than US cities for concentration of NOx
"But in the meantime, Poliscanova
argues that urban air in much of Europe is
barely fit to breathe, and diesel vehicles are
the principal cause. “https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/wp-content/uploads/124/1/ehp.124-A19.alt.pdf
Unrelated but slightly interesting tale of charging difficulties in edinburgh
Posted 6 years ago # -
Baillie Gifford own around 20% of Tesla shares.
https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/08/16/baillie-gifford-on-mars/
Posted 6 years ago # -
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“The future is more than just transport however; it’s about having ‘smart homes’ with technology supporting our daily lives wherever we are, all underpinned by cleaner greener power.“Electric vehicles are just the beginning.”
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Ok, put me out of my stupidity - are all/some/most/any charging points supplying free electricity?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Ok, put me out of my stupidity - are all/some/most/any charging points supplying free electricity?
I think most are free. "Rapid" chargers I think generally cost ~£5.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Thanks.
So what’s the ‘business model’?
Average subsidy per car, on top of purchase subsidy?
Sustainable?
Good idea?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Here's an interesting graphic:
EVs carbon by Ed, on Flickr
Posted 6 years ago # -
EVs don't seem to fair much better than petrols or diesels in terms of their total lifecycle carbon emission.
This will not improve unless we completely decarbonise the electricity grid (which at least seems like it could be possible). If we did that, then lifecycle carbon emissions from EVs would still only be half that of their fossil equivalents.
EVs do of course pollute less locally (except when they are holding up diesel buses)
Posted 6 years ago # -
“If we did that, then lifecycle carbon emissions from EVs would still only be half that of their fossil equivalents.”
Though presumably IF whole manufacturing (etc) process was de-carbonised figures would look better?
Either way, encouraging private motoring doesn’t seem like a great idea - apart from (maybe) keeping voters ‘happy’?
So, subsiding EVs might not be justifiable.
IF clean air in city centres is a key goal, maybe there are better things to do?
Posted 6 years ago #
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