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"Are Electric Cars the future of Low Carbon Transport?"

(677 posts)
  • Started 14 years ago by chdot
  • Latest reply from Baldcyclist
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  1. toomanybikes
    Member

    I've done such back of the envelope calculations myself in the past, and found things coming out far more favourably for the electric car. I also think it's fair to say you can choose the cleanness of the electricity you use if you use Ecotricity, who use profits to green up the grid.

    However, the professionals stepped in last year and made such back of the envelope calculations meaningless.

    If you charge electric cars using pure coal, then the lifecycle CO2 emissions are similar (but slightly higher) than diesel. If you charge using anything else, then EVs wipe the floor with diesel.

    Proper publication

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352146517305513?via%3Dihub

    Thinktank version:
    https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/2017_10_EV_LCA_briefing_final.pdf

    Figure 3 in the thinktank version compares across EU countries energy mixes. All come out in favour of EVs.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  2. Ed1
    Member

    Evs lack exhaust so may reduce heath disorders particularly over diesels

    “EVs do of course pollute less locally (except when they are holding up diesel buses)”

    I suppose the holding up buses part would also apply to bicycles

    Posted 5 years ago #

  3. paulmilne
    Member

    “The future is more than just transport however; it’s about having ‘smart homes’ with technology supporting our daily lives wherever we are, all underpinned by cleaner greener power."

    What utter tosh. My home supports my daily life by keeping the wind and rain off me for a few hours a day. No extra smartness needed for that. My non smart home also provides an end point for elelectricity that powers my cooking and lighting apparatus. Anything more is an indulgence we can ill afford.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  4. neddie
    Member

    The other thing to watch when they start installing chargers all over Edinburgh is whether they put them all over the pavement, taking space from pedestrians (& cycles on shared-use).

    Also the trailing leads present a trip hazard and/or create additional "detours" for those on foot to get around them.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  5. paulmilne
    Member

    They won't be free for long - as more people start using them the cooncil won't be able to afford the hit.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  6. Snowy
    Member

    I was in the market for an EV this summer. But charging points are practically non-existent on the south side. So, various factors, I've ended up with another diesel.

    The map shows how few and far between they really are.
    https://www.zap-map.com/live/

    I admit to ignorance on 'the plan' (I really hope there *is* one) - what roll-out of charging points is planned in Edinburgh to facilitate charging in built-up areas, in a way that will make them genuinely usable?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  7. neddie
    Member

    If the council wants to subsidise the electrification of something and achieve the maximum reduction in pollution, that subsidy must surely go to the electrification of buses.

    (TBF, I don't mind if they subsidise chargers for shared cars as well. But private cars - no. Buy your own sh**!)

    Posted 5 years ago #

  8. Snowy
    Member

    I am more than happy to pay for my 'own sh**', both the electricity and my share of charger(s) outside my building. But I'm afraid I'm not sure how private residents can club together and get a street charger installed, can you explain?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I can't see how electric cars lead to anything other than even more urban sprawl. That or a forest of wires dangling out of tenement windows to the vehicles below.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  10. Morningsider
    Member

    Electric cars still produce local particulate matter air pollution:

    "Increasingly non-exhaust sources of PM10 (for example tyre wear) have become a more important to consider as exhaust PM10 has been reduced. In fact, in 2015, 69% of emissions from the road transport sector were related to non-exhaust sources."

    Source: https://uk-air.defra.gov.uk/assets/documents/reports/cat07/1710060932_DA_Air_Quality_Pollutant_Inventories_1990-2015_v01-01.pdf

    Posted 5 years ago #

  11. Ed1
    Member

    It may be PM2.5 that can enter the blood, rather than PM10 that is considered the worse one. If the PM was set large enough the leaves falling of the trees may be the largest.

    If cars ran on water than a lager part of the emissions may be water vapour. Largest may not be the most damaging.

    I guess it would be a question of the relative dangers to health of the different types of pollution generated by different vehicle choices. Bicycles can also produce PM10 but now i am just being silly in context the low weight and lower number of miles completed would guess insignificant.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  12. Morningsider
    Member

    Ed1 - you are right, but most particulate matter statistics only record PM10. Still, I think this is an important point that is often overlooked.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  13. neddie
    Member

    But I'm afraid I'm not sure how private residents can club together and get a street charger installed, can you explain?

    They don’t. We don’t need to be encouraging more on-street storage of cars (electric or not).

    No driveway = No EV.

    If you must, then buy a hybrid or small petrol

    Posted 5 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Almost £17 million is to be spent on 1,500 new electric charge points for vehicles and more than 100 green buses, the First Minister has said.

    Nicola Sturgeon announced the funding ahead of unveiling her new programme for government at Holyrood on Tuesday.

    The First Minister set a target last year to phase out the need for new petrol and diesel vehicles by 2032.

    “

    https://www.scotsman.com/future-scotland/tech/scottish-government-to-invest-17m-in-green-transport-technology-1-4794144

    Posted 5 years ago #

  15. crowriver
    Member

    "1,500 new electric charge points for vehicles and more than 100 green buses"

    It would be much more worthwhile if those numbers were switched around, i.e. 1,500 "green" buses would make a lot more sense. Bus companies investing in the charging infrastructure is relatively straightforward as it will be sited at depots.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  16. neddie
    Member

    1 green bus = £250,000 -> £500,000

    1 charger = ~£5,000

    (guesstimates)

    There's your reason...

    Posted 5 years ago #

  17. neddie
    Member

    £1.7 million will provide more than 100 low carbon buses

    Eh? How can that be right?

    That's means they're getting each bus for £17k!

    Posted 5 years ago #

  18. Frenchy
    Member

    £17 million, not £1.7 million.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  19. neddie
    Member

    £15m is for the charge points & £1.7m is for the buses. Total ~£17m. The article is wrong somewhere.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  20. toomanybikes
    Member

    Is £17,000 the cost difference between diesel and electric? Are they subsidising the switch over rather than just the bus industry?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  21. Frenchy
    Member

    Ah, sorry. Perhaps it's just a subsidy?

    Posted 5 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Prime Minister Theresa May is coming to Birmingham to set out plans for the UK to lead the world in the design and manufacture of zero-pollution vehicles.

    “

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/theresa-birmingham-call-zero-pollution-15134452

    £400m for charging points mentioned on Today as though new -

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/30/ministers-400m-plan-for-electric-car-charging-infrastructure-delayed

    Seems ‘problem is LAs/planning process’, so, ‘will relax rules’.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    “

    ENERGY-SAVING hybrid buses have been withdrawn from a busy city route because the Capital’s hills were proving too much for them.

    “

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/lothian-buses-ditch-eco-friendly-fleet-after-battery-issues-1-4797812

    Posted 5 years ago #

  24. neddie
    Member

    Of course. They've been telling us all along that Edinburgh is different. Too hilly, wrong type of weather, not enough space...

    Posted 5 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    Wrong type of batteries(?)

    “

    £106 million funding boost for research and development in green vehicles, new batteries and low carbon technology

    “

    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-unveils-plans-for-uk-to-become-world-leader-in-low-emission-tech

    Posted 5 years ago #

  26. cb
    Member

    From the bus article:

    "
    Sources in the company said the hybrid buses were having “battery issues” with the “hilly” route and most are now being retrofitted with diesel engines
    "

    That can't be right?

    But a spokeswoman said,

    “All our fleet are fully capable of operating as required within the city and we have a range of buses with different passenger capacities and engine sizes, which give a wide range of differing performance all of which meets the required standards of operation.”

    Maybe a bit vague there.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  27. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    Post-Brexit they'll be retrofitted with steam engines. Pass it on.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  28. acsimpson
    Member

    I wonder what the expected life of the batteries was. After 7 years of daily running they would be operating as new.

    Posted 5 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity Michael Matheson said:
    “This is an important step forward in our commitments within the Programme for Government to introduce 20 electric towns before 2025 and to phase out the need for new petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2032.

    “

    https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/progress-for-scotland-s-electric-towns-and-cities/

    Posted 5 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    “

    Continued shocking ⁦‪@scotgov‬⁩ #SiloThinking. Need integrated #Emobility policy so people/business shown #ebike #cargobike options, not solely #EV.

    “

    https://twitter.com/spokeslothian/status/1045279033028743169

    Posted 5 years ago #

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