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Cyclist Jason MacIntyre's widow welcomes opinion

(31 posts)
  • Started 14 years ago by spytfyre
  • Latest reply from spytfyre

  1. spytfyre
    Member

    BBC News

    "Sheriff Douglas Small has suggested that a traffic island be built at the spot where he died to slow vehicles.

    He also recommended that all cyclists wear helmets and high visibility gear."

    Mrs MacIntyre added: "I can see why he made the recommendation that all cyclists wear high visibility clothing and helmets.

    "But the evidence was very clear that no helmet in the world would have saved Jason, and I believe he was perfectly visible, and MacTaggart would not have seen him, whatever he was wearing."

    Posted 14 years ago #
  2. The Sheriff also said, "I am satisfied that Mr MacTaggart’s failure arose as a consequence of not keeping a proper look-out of the road ahead of him."

    So the cause was the driver's innattention, but the recommendation is for cyclists to try and do something.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  3. And that traffic island is a little 'after the horse has bolted' unless since then there have been a string of incidents.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  4. Kim
    Member

    One can be fairly certain that Sheriff Douglas Small doesn't cycle and doesn't really understand what he is talking about. He is just trotting out the same old nonsense, blame the victim and ignore the problem.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  5. spytfyre
    Member

    I could go into a long rant about hivis vs cycle-chic but I am not going down that road again

    Posted 14 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    "One can be fairly certain that Sheriff Douglas Small doesn't cycle and doesn't really understand what he is talking about"

    No, but presumably he is a driver, and he may have reflected that when he drives he sees cyclists in hi-viz more easily and quickly than those in less visible outerwear (or thinks he does).

    It would be a different issue would be if there was scientific data that showed that drivers do not identify cyclists in hi-viz sooner than others. But that would be a question of him knowing about that research or not, and nothing to do with him being a cyclist or a motorist.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  7. Dave
    Member

    This case is the perfect illustration of the problem we have as a society. Everyone obsesses around victim blaming despite the fact that, in this instance, the driver had something like 14 seconds during which time the cyclist was clearly visible on the open road, and still killed him.

    If we had a fly on the windscreen I'd bet any money that the driver saw Jason MacIntyre perfectly well, but made an ill-judged manouvre regardless - perhaps not expecting him to be going at 30mph. Certainly it's quite hard to believe that he looked for him for one quarter of a minute but couldn't make him out, which is the problem high-viz might help with.

    What is really needed is an increase in cyclist numbers and the increased awareness that would naturally follow - not something which will ever be achieved if we start extending the list of "minimum survival gear" you require be considered the victim of bad driving, rather than architect of your own downfall.

    First a helmet, now helmet plus binman suit, already I see a couple of regulars on Leith walk with MTB elbow pads - how long until magistrates explain away your smashed elbow by saying "all prudent cyclists would be wearing rigid body armour" - I genuinely think we'll see it sooner than later.

    However, it's perhaps unrealistic to expect laymen to take the long view. All the sheriff could really do is parrot "common sense", it's down to others to challenge dogma and change the guidance they receive / the Highway Code etc.

    I find it interesting that the driver spoke at the inquiry and hasn't been behind the wheel since (notwithstanding that he spent a little time with a ban). This is a useful reminder that when people are killed by bad drivers, it's often not down to malice but genuinely unintentional (however mind-blowingly stupid the driving was in hindsight).

    Posted 14 years ago #
  8. SRD
    Moderator

    I've always been struck by point that in modern cars, where you don't feel/hear the wind etc, drivers find it hard to estimate how fast they are going. And given the idiotic things we see drivers doing, very clear that many do not always watch the road, much less cyclists.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  9. SRD
    Moderator

    So, do you think that no one should wear hi-viz? what about the bin men and the roads workers? Shouldn't we know to 'expect' to see them?

    I think it would be nice if we could trust every idiot driver to be totally au fait with road conditions, driving skills, highway code etc, but honestly, the obsession with bashing hi-viz is starting to really annoy me.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  10. spytfyre
    Member

    "the obsession with bashing hi-viz is starting to really annoy me"

    Ditto

    Posted 14 years ago #
  11. Personally I was bashing the victim-blaming...

    As with helmets, hi-viz is a matter of personal choice. I make myself more visible with road positioning and so on (the incidents I have are about 99% of the time to do with having been seen and not caring, not with having not been seen in the first place). And in the summer the summer shirts come out to commute in - trust me, if you think hi-viz gets you noticed on a bike you really need to try bringing a bit of Hawaii or Cuba to the commute.

    I just find it slightly odd that having said the cause was the driver not paying attention there was no recommendation about how we try and address the problem of drivers in general not paying attention, and instead focussed on what the cyclist can do.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  12. SRD
    Moderator

    "I just find it slightly odd that having said the cause was the driver not paying attention there was no recommendation about how we try and address the problem of drivers in general not paying attention, and instead focussed on what the cyclist can do."

    good point.

    I think they should all have to retake their driver's tests every 5 years.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  13. Personally, as a driver, I'd have no problem with having to do that at all.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  14. Kim
    Member

    As an ex-driving instructor, I am always worried about the standard of observation of some drivers, they really don't look. Making cyclist wear Hi-Viz is not the solution.

    I remember a story from a guy complaining about a driver making a right turn directly across his path. He then went on to say that he wasn't out on his bike at the time, no he was at work, driving a fire engine, and as he said, "you paint it red, stick blue flashing lights on it and still some drivers can't see it coming!"

    The problem is with drivers, and the fact that driving errors are seen as acceptable, "it was just an accident" should not be accepted as an excuse.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  15. Dave
    Member

    So, do you think that no one should wear hi-viz? what about the bin men and the roads workers? Shouldn't we know to 'expect' to see them?

    You raise a good point, and I would be genuinely interested to know whether fewer bin men get mown down as a result of their choice of clothing.

    I suspect the answer is no, but inconveniently there is no research to tell either way, and my anecdotes have no more weight than anyone else's. I would only suggest that, if there is a safety benefit from high-viz it should be easy to measure, and given the huge value of the high-viz market, a good body of research ought to exist. What we actually have is assumption straight out of "Bad Science".

    For those of a practical disposition, you can conduct one of my favourite experiments at your leisure. Walk towards a zebra crossing while traffic is approaching, but look steadily and continuously in the wrong direction. You'll find it quite easy to see the car out of the corner of your eye (so that you don't actually end up under the wheels in the name of science). Miraculously, even if you do this at night with normal clothes on, the car will stop, every time. (I spent some years around the zebra crossing on Marchmont Rd and loved every minute of it)

    I have friends who hate zebra crossings because they're convinced drivers won't see them, and in fact when they walk up to a crossing and timorously wait for the traffic to pass, it does keep passing. But what they confuse as the drivers looking for them *but being unable to see them* is in fact quite different to the reality.

    There is no obvious reason why car drivers can see people in dark clothes at night, but massacre binmen were it not for their protective neon suits. Unfortunately, "common sense" is so heavily entrenched here that it's almost impossible to argue against (as we will see here, I'm sure).

    I think it would be nice if we could trust every idiot driver to be totally au fait with road conditions, driving skills, highway code etc, but honestly, the obsession with bashing hi-viz is starting to really annoy me.

    So you don't find it annoying that instead of having a focus on drivers taking responsibility for their actions, we have a culture of victim blaming that is even pursued by potential victims against each other? (witness this discussion).

    It's quite depressing that even cyclists consider it to be too hard for drivers to avoid ramming into people without visual aids, because of all that "road conditions, driving skills, highway code etc" stuff that must be so taxing for them!

    At the end of the day however, much of this is besides the point. Suppose we reversed this story and a driver died because a cyclist pulled out in front of them, causing them to swerve into a tree. The authorities, newspapers, and drivers associations could make a big noise about how the accident could have been prevented if the driver had only covered their car in luminous paint (you can do this, and it is quite cheap).

    It would be equally valid and, indeed, it might be just as effective (or not) at preventing accidents. But it would never be mentioned, because the same common sense that says that luminous cyclists will never be killed, says that your car is fully visible in grey or green, and cannot be improved.

    Strange world, eh? The least we can do is mock it.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  16. SRD
    Moderator

    Yes, it would be good if every single judgement said, and newspapers reported them saying 'drivers must be more aware of cyclists, (and all other non-car road users)'.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  17. SRD
    Moderator

    From the BBC "A cyclist's death could have been avoided if he had worn bright clothing and a council worker had driven with greater care, a sheriff has said."...."Sheriff Douglas Small has recommended all cyclists wear high visibility clothing and a helmet.
    But he conceded head gear would not have prevented Mr MacIntyre's death."

    Posted 14 years ago #
  18. Dave
    Member

    The other thing to pick up on (since we're well on the way to having a controversial thread as it is!) is that the sheriff was apparently forced, much against his better judgement, to agonisingly and hesitatingly "concede" that a bike helmet wouldn't save you in a crash at speed.

    Why is this a concession? Even helmet manufacturers don't market their product as protecting against crashes above ~12mph, so while I can understand the judiciary making an observation that the speed was too high for a helmet to make any difference, just for the record as it were, there is no need to "concede" that they don't protect outside their design brief.

    (You can of course buy quality helmets at pretty low prices which *are* designed to protect against collisions above 12mph)

    Posted 14 years ago #
  19. Kim
    Member

    SRD "the obsession with bashing hi-viz is starting to really annoy me". Simple wear what you want, but would criticise a young woman for wearing a short skirt on the grounds that she is putting her self at the risk of rape? Would advocate that all women should wear the Hijab or the khimar to protect them from the the lustful gaze of men? It is actually the same argument.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  20. SRD
    Moderator

    "It is actually the same argument."

    No it's not. Or at least I do not see why you would think these were equivalent situations.

    The only way it might be the same is if you assume that drivers set out intentionally to murder or injure cyclists.

    Rather, in most cases cyclists are injured because of poor driving skills, distraction, and so forth.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  21. Kim
    Member

    You are still blaming the victim, you seam to want to make it the cyclist responsibility to be visible. When it is legally the drivers responsibility to look, why should the cyclist be blamed?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  22. SRD
    Moderator

    What about someone who has a bike stolen because they haven't put a lock on it? There's no law requiring us to lock up our bikes - the law requires someone else not to take our property. But most of us take reasonable precautions.

    The debate you are raising is about what are 'reasonable precautions'? The legal requirements are for lights, reflectors etc. Your problem is with a judge saying 'be more visible' which is akin to a judge saying 'people who don't want their bikes stolen should use a (good) lock'. He is not saying it is right for someone to steal your bike, but that it is advisable to use a good lock.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  23. Dave
    Member

    It's interesting to see something with which I disagree so strongly re-framed in a useful way - thanks.

    However, the problem is not that judges are merely observing that locked bikes are less likely to be stolen.

    To make the analogy more accurate, we'd have to say that bike thieves are being let off lightly, in many cases not prosecuted at all, simply because they are stealing bikes which are not locked up - and the judge is saying, it's hardly the fault of the thief for taking an unlocked bike!

    n.b. I was going to say that I disliked the analogy because while using a lock conclusively prevents theft, wearing high viz has little or no association (in research, as opposed to received wisdom) with fewer injuries.

    This is true, but at the same time it does parallel one of the major points of the debate, which is that putting armour and high-viz on the 'minimum requirements' list for sensible cycling causes a huge reduction in cycling levels, but so does the fact that you have to carry a lock wherever you go, undo your front wheel to park and potentially carry off your saddle when you leave.

    When either problem (recommending high-viz/armour or requiring locks) is resolved, many more people cycle and the casualty rate plummets, despite their woeful bare-headedness and normal-clothed-nicity.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    the old hi-vis / not lo-vis debate again. There is no way wearing hi-vis or assertive riding position can help you from blind drivers so the fault is with the driver but I still wear hi-vis myself, up to me and no rigorous evidence that this has any ramifications anywhere else (just subjective opinion).

    I do not have a binman story but I do have a lollipop woman story for Dave. He may like it as it confirms his views (with slight caveat). The now retired lollipop woman on McDonald road likes playing poker in her spare time and indeed a different kind of poker when she stood in front of traffic when the sun was low as her spot is in a slight dip and if drivers don't look they hit her. Despite her hi-vis full length jacket and big fecking lollipop stick. That she came back to work at all after the first time was astonishing, but after the second time I think she felt her luck was running out. Thus hi-vis is not the answer in combatting blind drivers on low sun days when you work in a dip in the middle of the road. However, drivers do spot comedy tops and some drive closer to you to hurl abuse and some are perfectly well behaved.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  25. wee folding bike
    Member

    Comedy tops mean people can tell when you wear the same shirt all week. I usually go for a plain black T but one of my Animal shirts (of Dr Teeth's Electric Mayhem Band) was top of the pile one day this week so I wore that. A colleague commented on it so I couldn't wear that one again the next day.

    Zoot is cooler than Animal or Dr Teeth.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  26. SRD
    Moderator

    "Zoot is cooler than Animal or Dr Teeth."

    Finally, a TV show discussion that I have some clue about. I find it pretty impossible to pick a favourite though. favourite episode maybe, favourite guest star, possibly, but favourite muppet? impossible.

    Posted 14 years ago #
  27. spytfyre
    Member

    yeah... not sure I am terribly fussed for "who's your favourite muppet" on a thread started on the death of a cyclist...

    Posted 14 years ago #
  28. SRD
    Moderator

    well, i was hoping to read something sensible about cycling and mental health, and all i got was a helmet debate!

    Posted 14 years ago #
  29. spytfyre
    Member

    you noticed that too huh?

    Posted 14 years ago #
  30. Dave
    Member

    What on earth did you expect? A lively discussion around the merits of the Sheriff's observation that you should check for oncoming traffic before turning right?

    <confused />

    Posted 14 years ago #

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