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Folding Bike (bad?) Advice Needed

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Started 12 years ago by Bhachgen
Latest reply from crowriver
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Bhachgen
Member

Looking for some advice on folders.

Looks like I am about to take the big step from working in financial services for semi-decent-ish money to becoming a bikeability trainer for semi-awful money but a great big wedge of job satisfaction.

Don't want to have to buy a car/van to get me around, but some of the "patch" I will be covering is a bit far away for a full cycle commute.

Unfortunately the trains down here (Lancs/Greater Manchester/Merseyside) are jam-packed and not very cycle friendly even when half-empty (Scotrail is like some kind of amazing cycletopia railway in comparison but it's the usual story of only appreciating things when you no longer have them).

So a folder looks like the best solution for those days when I have further to travel than I fancy doing on my cross bike. Brompton was the first name that came to mind, but they are pretty pricey (remember that paycut I mentioned?) and I have read some mixed reviews. Also considering part of the price premium is justified by the fact it's British designed/built they don't have the best reputation for how they treat their staff.

A couple of places seem to be doing Dahons at a good price just now, in particular the Mu P8 which looks decent enough.

I think EBC used to do a "Revolution" folder that looked good value but looks like they have stopped selling it.

I'm sure some of the CCE community have some experience with folders so please hit me with the combined total of your knowledge and wisdom!

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Here's a thread we made earlier with lots of foldery buying advice:

http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8220

If, like me, you balk at the price of Brompton and (proprietory) accessories, then just ignore the Bromptonite propaganda in the thread and check out the alternatives. Bear in mind that Dahons (apart from the base models and Dahon clones) often have exclusively Dahon accessories and spare parts, too...

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

i'm really enjoying my dahon. whee!

Posted 12 years ago #
gembo
Member

Conclusion on folders is that bromptons fold best. You can watch experts dismount and fold with a flick of the wrist. Fast Dahon that uberuce had at the ZAZOU test (think it was SRD's) was the best for cycling. Inthinkmthis was not a bottom end Dahon.

This is just my conclusion but it has the Colgate ring of confidence

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

I found Dahon MUCH easier to fold than slightly aged Brompton (which I was kindly lent for one day, so perhaps not fair comparison?). But that could just be me. But it does not fold up anywhere near as small and compact as brompton.

Posted 12 years ago #
gembo
Member

SRD, that is just you. Brompton the best folder, it's official but that is just my opinion

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Best ≠ Easiest

Bromptonites swear by their machines. I don't doubt the quality of the bikes, but there's a hint of Apple fanboydom about the passionate partisanship therein.

A second hand Brompton might be the thing if cash is tight, or a mid-range Dahon. There are also cheaper Dahon clones and rebadged Dahons out there (eg. Raleigh, Dawes folders).

Posted 12 years ago #
remberbuck
Member

And don't forget that you're buying a bike as well as a folder. Bromptons are all that people say that they are in terms of foldability. They are also heavy, under geared, and not what you want if you need to get somewhere fast.

As a bike the Mu P8 is much better, and has the advantage that it is easier and cheaper to service, as my friendly LBS was relieved to tell me. You might find the difference in folding size neither here nor there for what you want. Neither compare as bikes to the Birdy however, and there was a day, now sadly passed, when they were sensibly priced.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

Used Bromptons aren't that much cheaper. One went for nearly £700 on eBay last week and yesterday a superlight seat pin sold for £271. That's about 1/4 of what I paid for the whole superlight bike 4 years ago.

Anywho, got a tyre to mend. Evans still haven't replaced the rear triangle on the one with Marathon tyres and they've had it since July.

Posted 12 years ago #
Uberuce
Member

As long as any given bike folds up small enough for train staff to let it on as hand luggage, then you're golden.

Thumbs up for the Dahon kindly loaned to me by SRD. In its bag I expect it would pass without comment onto trains and it was a game wee thing to ride fast. Arthur's Seat wasn't a problem at all.

Posted 12 years ago #
Smudge
Member

@remberbuck, my Brompton is heavy, overgeared and deceptively quick thankyouverymuch, mind you, SRD's Dahon is a flying machine!

Don't listen to other peoples (like mine!) opinion Bhachgen, scrounge a go/rent a shot on a range of them and see what suits *you*, it is unlikely to be the same as the suggestion of many people you ask! ;-)

The Dahon SL was fantastic, but the Brommie suits what I use it for better, others have different experiences, neither was cheap (flash folders start at approx £300 second hand) but both have areas they are very good in and others wherethey sre merely adequate, in my experience many lower spec folders have areas they are adequate in and areas they are poor in, as with so much you pa your money and take your choice, and that's not intended as a criticism of anyone.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

Standard Brompton BWR gearing has a range of 33" to 100".

http://xldev.co.uk/bgc.html

You can move that up or down a wee bit if you like by changing some of the options.

My S2L-X is under 9kg, so less than the racing bike I got in 1990, but it only has 56" and 74" gears. Flying start acceleration will make MAMILS (and their ilk) cry. It's quite good at that because it's light, partly Titanium and the wheels are small. Standing start is less impressive but still better than motor vehicles. It wasn't cheap.

At the risk of being accused of fanboisism, ohhh, already happened, I choose to use Bromptons when I don't really need to because I like how they ride. M types can take a big bag and carry a lot stuff without compromising the handling. S type is more sporty. I don't have a P. Luggage rack on the back can be useful but their proprietary front luggage is usually preferred.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

More…

Two speed changers can get dirty and stick in the winter, it's a 30 minute job to remove and clean the bearing unless the wee allen bolts are rounded in which case I spray with WD-40 and hope.

Chains wear out fast in the winter. I'm lucky to get 500 miles out of them if there is a lot of grit.

Cables crack under the BB where they bend on folding. Expect to replace them every 2 yrs or so.

Tyres are half the size but not half the price.

The rear hinge could be easier to replace. I get 25-30 thousand miles out of one hinge. They don't unscrew as a rule so they need to be drilled out and then Brompton supply a £200 reamer to fit the new one… that's the only reason mine is in Evans.

New brake levers and a right hand spider will be available in 2013. The current chainset is one piece on the RHS so you need to replace the whole thing if the teeth wear out. The new one will have replaceable rings. You could, of course, just use a different make of chainset already.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

@wfb, my earlier remark was not directed at you personally. I just noticed that the previous folder buying thread was quickly beseiged by CCE folks defending Bromptons and their luggage carrying capacity after I had the temerity to question it. That's brand loyalty approaching Apple proportions I reckon.

I never said that Bromptons were not good bikes. They certainly have the smallest fold of all mainstream folders (does the A frame or whatever it's called with those tiny wheels count?) and seem to be one of the most polpular makes in the UK. They should not be above criticism however.

At the risk of repeating previous statements in an earlier thread, on Bromptons I defer to folk (like you) who have a wealth of experience of the machines. It has been interesting to hear your insights into the strengths and weaknesses of the marque.

As to the question raised by Bhachgen, I suppose one thing I'd add is that hub gears are a real asset on a folding bike. The smaller wheels are closer to the ground and thus derailleur gears will suffer from road spray, dirt and so on even more than on 'normal' bikes. Less of a maintenance requirement and easier to keep trousers/skirt clean if you have a chainguard.

Both my current folders (bought second hand) are hub geared, one has hub brakes too (Pashley Fold-it). I wouldn't switch back to a derailleur geared folder now unless it was a 'performance' machine like an Airnimal or Bike Friday.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

Strida?

Clamps can suffer from stress fractures.

Having the bolts for the clamps running in the frame rather than a replaceable bush of some kind doesn't seem like a good idea but my oldest one is 11 now and wear of the frame threads doesn't seem to be an issue.

Some people have issues with the seat pin slipping. A wee tweak on the binder bolt can sort it or degrease the seat pin.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

I don't think I'd claim wealth of experience, I don't mod them beyond changing the tyres to Schwalbe. I did have a SpeedDrive on one of bike but I broke two of them and gave up on that idea. The 6 speed BWR means there is less call for it now anyway.

Posted 12 years ago #
fimm
Member

You've got my opinions on my Brompton on the other thread. I think I got a bit defensive on the discussion when it was suggested that you couldn't carry luggage on a Brompton!

I only find it heavy when it is folded, but I carry it up three flights of stairs on a regular basis. I will unfold it to wheel it quite small distances, though. I find the gears fine for me.

My colleague had a second-hand folder which did not fold so small as the Brompton, and was more awkward to fold and carry. She carried her luggage in a rucksack... but she paid £100 for it, and it did what she needed it to do.

Edit: I'd encourage you to follow the link to the AtoB site on the other thread.

Posted 12 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

i bought a rack for the Dahon which carries a full size pannier no problem, but prevents it fitting into bag when folded...

Posted 12 years ago #
cb
Member

If it's going to be used on trains regularly then size of fold and speed of fold are both important.

I'd say no more than 20s to fold or unfold, but ideally sub 10s. It can make a difference when you're running late.

Bromptons are often touted as the fastest to fold, but I don't think that's true really. They have an easy and clever fold but are hampered by the need to tackle the screw clamps on each main joint.

Uberuce said as long as it's small enough to be allowed on as hand luggage, but the practicalities of stowing the bike on the train are important. I was amazed to discover that my Birdy can't fit upright into the lower luggage shelf in many trains. The folded bike will take up more space than you think.

Also bear in mind that you may want/need to carry the bike down the aisle to another luggage area. Can you carry the folded bike in front of you without hitting people sitting in their seats.

Posted 12 years ago #
Bhachgen
Member

Lots to think about here and in the other thread. Thanks so much for all the advice folks.

I'm away to do some more shopping around and start to look into what's available 2nd hand.

Posted 12 years ago #
Arellcat
Moderator

Inthinkmthis was not a bottom end Dahon.

In fact, it was second only to the 19lb Jetstream and a fairly scary amount of money back in 2005.

Folders are always horses for courses. The smallest, neatest, most convenient package is the Brompton, followed by the Mezzo. The smoothest riding is the Birdy (though the Dahon Jetstream P8 is probably close). Dahon makes the lightest and fastest, and best budget folders. Bike Friday makes the most 'big bike feeling' folders with the most gears and options, and equal to the Birdy for pannier capacity. Birdy and Dahon fold to about the same size. Len Rubin makes the lightest, smallest, most convenient, and the most frighteningly expensive folder.

Bromptons also have the best immediate availability of spare parts, followed by Bike Friday, and the best on-bike solution for luggage, although if you already have panniers and don't want to buy a S-bag, C-bag, O-bag or T-bag, there are a couple of non-standard ways to do it. My B has non-standard jacked-up handlebars and my C-bag holds a weekend away's worth of stuff.

Posted 12 years ago #
Roibeard
Member

Sorry to add to the flood of Bromptonistas, but I've succumbed with the assistance of bike-to-work.

Due to the Uni's delay in deciding I was eligible, it's going to cost me an extra £100, and not arrive until sometime in 2013, but it will have the new brake levers and chainring mentioned above.

It should also be relatively light to address the weight concerns, but the small, neat fold and widespread availability (parts and dealers), weighted things in its favour.

I also went for the 6 speed version (for hills), but my wife found this too highly geared as standard (contrary to the undergeared comment above). It is normally 33-100", but we're going for 29-88" instead.

And yes, I'm hoping that we'll enjoy the quality long after we've forgotten the price...

Don't tell the kids, but I couldn't persuade Ruth to accept the hot pink one I wanted (complete with pink Ortlieb to match), so we've ordered Artic Blue instead.

Robert

Posted 12 years ago #
Cyclingmollie
Member

WFB: "Flying start acceleration will make MAMILS (and their ilk) cry."

Think what you could do on a proper bike.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

It wouldn't be as much fun on a proper bike. Doing it on a clown bike is the point.

Actually if they knew what they were about they would spot I was spinning a 74" top gear and catch me. Being passed by someone in mufti on on a Q bike seems to take some of the fight out of them.

Posted 12 years ago #
crowriver
Member

Flying start acceleration will make MAMILS (and their ilk) cry.

This is generally true of small-wheeled bicycles: really zippy acceleration from a standing start. It fairly puts the wind up some cyclists and motorists at the traffic lights. Problem is top gear is usually no match for larger wheeled cycling brethren...

Very good at climbing hills too, though I understand the 'standard issue' Bromptons have quite high gearing more suited to the south east of England. Presume you can arrange a bigger rear cog/smaller front chainring as a custom option on a new Brompton (for extra wonga?).

Posted 12 years ago #
Smudge
Member

Yup, standard chainring on mine is a 50t iirc, but a 44t can be bought off the shelf and swapped in.

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

That might be the case for the three speed but the six has pretty much the same range as my normal bikes. There are no dupes and a fairly logical progression through the changes which isn't something you can say for 24 speed derailleurs. Actually I never bothered being logical with them, if it was too low I moved up and vice versa. I spent much of my school years rolling round Ayrshire on a 70" fixed wheel anyway.

With my short wheel base M type it isn't lack of gears which causes problems on hills but the front wheel lifting off the ground. A biggish bag on the front holds it down. I don't have that problem with the other two but they are both long wheel base S types. Two variables changed so I can't tell if a long wheel base M type would still lift up.

Changing the chainring should be easier with the new spider. You also need to change the length of the chain as there is a limit to the capacity of the tensioner.

Two speeds come with a 54t chainring. You can also fit that to the hub gear versions to make the gearing a bit longer but I haven't bothered since the 6 speeds and particularly the BWR hub came along.

Some parts of south east England are steep. I was chasing a fully lycra suited guy up Sydenham hill a few weeks ago. I was gaining on him but had to stop at a roundabout and guess which way was Crystal Palace. The transmitter mast was sited there for a reason.

Posted 12 years ago #
Smudge
Member

I should point out that the chainring sizes are quoted from memory and should not be trusted without checking CRC's website or similar ;-)
edit, just checked and brompton chainwheels are available in 54t, 50t, 48t, 46t and 44t, single rear sprockets are 12 and 13t or 14t on the 44t front only, double rear sprockets are 16/12t, 16/13t, or 15/13t... so there are a fair few options, of course if you wanted you could always fit a non Brompton chainwheel and extend the options further.
As with most bicycles, the practical limit is probably the individuals own imagination and determination ;-)

Posted 12 years ago #
wee folding bike
Member

It's difficult, not impossible, to fit something bigger than a 54t on the front as it fouls the fork clip when folded. Dave Holladay has something like 300t on his chainring and a single speed.

Some chainrings used to only be available in a 1/8" but think they're all 3/32" now.

You need different sprockets for the SA and SRAM hubs which were fitted to about 2008. They use the old SA three tit version (I think that is the official name, sorry about that). Newer versions use the Shimano pattern. Brompton claim their sprockets have specially designed teeth to aid shifting but people do use other ones. They're not spendy.

Posted 12 years ago #
bruce_mcadam
Member

Since I was reviewing my bike for another forum, I will copy it here...

I've been taking the Oyama St James on the train for the last 3 months. It's been an excellent purchase for the price, although it clearly falls below a Brompton in quality.

Build quality seems fine (I guess similar to a Dahon). Some of the welds are messy, but the hinges are smooth, with no play or misalignment. I worry a little about getting replacement parts if one of the catches breaks (the catch adjustment depends on an M6 thread with a lot of extension force on it).
The folding pedals are ok if you don't mind flat plastic pedals. The bottom bracket has adjustable bearing cups and headset is threaded -- I've adjusted both these bearings since buying the bike. One of the dustcaps on the crank fell out and got lost. Mudguards and rack are metal, well made and solid. Kickstand is the correct length and makes folding easier. The unbranded v-brakes have stayed correctly adjusted and the Alexrims DA16 rimmed wheels are still true. I changed the tyres for Schwalbe Marathon Racers but I don't think this was really necessary (I've still got the original presta valve tubes). Axles are nutted and the hub gear and magnetic catch on the nuts add extra steps to removing the wheels (I don't bother carrying tools and expect to fold the bike and take it on the bus in case of breakdown).

The matching trim on handlebar grips and saddle is a nice touch (although I swapped the saddle).

Folding is easy. I unfold quicker than Brompton users on my train, probably because the catches don't need screwing up. The handlebar folds between the wheels, and the wheels link with a magnetic catch. In order to get the brake levers to a comfortable angle I had to replace the long M5 screw that forms part of this magnetic catch with a longer one to make more space between the wheels. I've noticed on someone else's bike that this screw can get bent as it sticks out quite far. There are a couple of places where the frame rubs paintwork when folded (stem against down tube, brake lever against chain stay), the plastic stickers that were supposed to protect the frame came off in the rain so I replaced them with silicone sealant. The bike folds without having to remove lights.

Steering is a little twitchy as the stem has no reach. I don't find it much slower than any other bike for hilly stop-start urban cycling (13th out of 90 people on Strava for my ride into town).

Weight is fine for lifting the bike to a waist-high luggage rack on the train (so should be ok for putting in a car boot).

I have the larger 20inch model but need the seatpost at full extension (for comparison, my Pompino is the 51cm medium size). Lots of height adjustment in the bars (but no reach, and no scope to change this).

The rear rack carries an Altura Urban 17 briefcase pannier without heel strike. The rack is really solid and clearly made to fit the frame (the stays are not adjustable at all), I've taken 15kg on it. You could possibly put an SQR block on the folding stem or use a handlebar bag bracket to carry luggage up front, but I think the handling would be terrible. You could fit an Carradice SQR bag or saddlebag, get rid of the rack, and probably fold the bike without removing the bag.

(I bought it at http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/oyama-st-james-item173258.html)

Posted 12 years ago #