CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

Who is this guy :(

(46 posts)
  • Started 12 years ago by freewhwheelin
  • Latest reply from Arellcat

No tags yet.


  1. Instography
    Member

    I can buy into the absolutist position that everyone should obey all of the prevailing laws and if there's any you don't like, you should campaign through the appropriate channels. Fine.

    That only moves me to the politics of the law-breaking cyclist. Why is the emphasis on the law-breaking cyclist and not the law-breaking driver? Why is there an expectation that cyclists should (and do) police themselves but drivers need not? What is the role of the law-breaking cyclist in debates about transport investment and the allocation of road space. I think the law-breaking cyclist is a straw man and the absolutist, in arguing that position, helps hold it up.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Instography
    Member

    Picking up on Dave's last paragraph, I'd also add that the absolutist position is, in effect, telling those people to get on the road or stay off their bike. There's no cycling for them. That group, however small or vast, is condemned to wait for the infrastructure that the straw man of the law-breaking cyclist is being used to prevent.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. Kirst
    Member

    The cyclists are fuds and the taxi driver is a fud.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. Baldcyclist
    Member

    "I'd also add that the absolutist position is, in effect, telling those people to get on the road or stay off their bike. There's no cycling for them."

    Hmm, never realised staying within the law meant you couldn't cycle at all?

    If you refer to that group as those that may not be comfortable cycling on the road, and feel they have to cycle on pavements because there is no infrastructure that they can use and feel safe on, then yes, THERE'S NO CYCLING FOR THEM, absolutely.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. Smudge
    Member

    I hear what you're saying Dave, but suppose running red lights caused one avoidable death? Is that an acceptable margin? Or two, or ten if numbers increased enough? My point is that it is in the same category as speeding purely because it is breaking clear road laws for a minimal gain to the perpetrator (measurable in seconds) which carries a potential risk of collision, exactly the same as speeding. Thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of drivers will break the speed limit today, a few hundred cyclists will probably jump red lights, now they (cyclists)might have to be unlucky to get hit or cause someone else to get hit, they'd have to be *very* unlucky to hit and injure/kill someone, purely by numbers participating there will be more people hurt/affected by speeders, but it's a totally avoidable extra risk. By using the bike in an illegal manner they are creating risk and breaking safety rules in exactly the same manner as the speeding driver, and using the same justification, "it probably wont be me".
    I cannot see any justification for RLJ'ing sorry, to me it's a black and white obey the rules or don't, and as soon as we start picking and choosing which rules should apply we lose any ability to criticise other road users without being open to very justified cries of hypocrisy.

    Your serious question for me highlights how broken the enforcement of road law is, and it is concerning. That it is so poor that people being frightened daily as they go about their business is somehow acceptable, I find it completely obscene that we are prepared to accept many deaths on the road every day in the pursuit of speed and convenience.

    My belief is that teaching people to obey the rules and use primary / secondary sensibly, and to be assertive on the road, works. Both for powered and unpowered two wheelers. Along with a progressive move from the quietest roads up to the busier ones of course.
    There will sadly always be a group of people who feel the risks outweigh the advantages, I have known several people who will not drive a car, although qualified, as the behaviour of other road users scares them so much, and given the accident rates it is a justified fear. I believe that harsh enforcement of the existing rules could help, and a change from the current presumption of a "right" to hold a licence to it being a privilege would go further, however that change must encompass all road users.

    As has been extensively discussed, the cyclist, to us gently rolling round a corner on the pavement can appear a scary speeding thug to some young. elderly or infirm pedestrians, even if there is little or no risk of physical injury, their fright still counts. We must consider the impact of our actions on others as well as others impact upon us.

    So, reluctantly, if your protege cannot learn and be taught the confidence to use the "frightening"* roads around them, then I fear I would have to say they must restrict themselves to segregated cycle-routes and quieter roads and campaign to everyone they can think of for an improvement in the safety in their area.
    It shouldn't be this way, it IS wrong, and maybe it means one less cyclist, but that is the way I see their option just now :-(
    I think whatever our differences of opinion, we are both agreed that it is a very, very sad situation we find ourselves in now though :-(

    *that is meant as a description not a criticism

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Its_Me_Knees
    Member

    Ooooh - pet hate time. Not taxi drivers, or car/lorry/bus drivers, or indeed cyclists, but anyone with the screaming arrogance to think that the law doesn't / shouldn't apply to them. It's a nasty, self-serving mind set that seems to grow daily in our society as we are taught to suppress ideas built around the common good in favour of some half-cocked notion about the Freedom of the Individual (God Bless America, Jeremy Clarkson and the Tory Party, etc...).

    The police and ambulance crews know the deal: unlike the rest of us, they see the consequences of this arrogance every week - just because I've never seen an RLJ-ing cyclist hit a pedestrian, or seen a cyclist hit by an amber-gambling taxi, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

    I'm with Kirst: the cyclists and the taxi driver in the video are fuds. Whether or not there is equality of enforcement of laws for cyclists and taxi drivers (or other road users) is a moot point, but it doesn't mean that any RTA violations are justified.

    Tin hat on...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    Good grief.

    Posting that vid on here is pretty much trolling and flamebaiting.

    Consider what would the reaction be if a video of taxis running red/amber lights, doing illegal U-eys, cutting other road users up dangerously, and so on, was made by a cyclist and then posted to a taxi driver forum?

    Personally, I'm not going to bother arguing the toss over this one. It's just as bad as the h****t debate.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. stiltskin
    Member

    The problem is that the perception of cyclists has very little to do with their on road behaviour. It wouldn't matter if even a tiny proportion jumped red. It is how this is perceived by motorists.
    Anecdote time. In a car with my wife at the Craigleith junction. Cyclist ambles through a red. Wife comments negatively on the cyclists behaviour. "it's why cyclists have a bad reputation." At that point I could see three other bikes stopped at the lights while every single ASL had a car in it. So 75% compliance by bikes 0% by car & what was noticed? I have no idea whether cyclists as a whole are more or less law abiding than drivers. What I do know is that the reputation we have is due to our 'out group status and is not a direct reflection on relative standards of behaviour.

    This vid is confirmation bias in action. Loads of shots of people committing illegal acts which by & large are not dangerous which ends up with an ending of the cabbie driving in a dangerous fashion. The reason this video does nothing for me is that if I were to post a vid I would put something which is genuinely dangerous: that might include someone riding at speed through a crowd of peds for example. But the behaviour he shows can be seen every minute of everyday by all sorts of different road users. Ideally nobody would ever break the law, but since they do, let's concentrate our ire on the stuff that actually kills people. Once we've fixed that we can move onto building a perfect society.
    As most people have said here. I don't condone RLJ etc. it irritates the hell out of me. However in the grand scheme of things the main problem is that it gives motorists the opportunity to whinge ,but you know what.... They'd whinge anyway. They see what they want to see. They choose to ignore bahviour which kills 2000 people a year and concentrate on that which results in few injuries. Where is the logic in that?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. tammytroot
    Member

    Hands up anyone who knows of a set of traffic lights that does not detect the approach of cyclists?
    Now hands up anyone who does not dismount and push their bike accross the road.
    See, you lot all jump red lights :)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Dave
    Member

    I walk across junctions all the time, even if they do turn green on a regular basis. To me it's a pointless distinction between walking across with or without a bike, whatever people who aren't so fortunate (i.e. can't carry their car about!) may think.

    In time the growing popularity of cycling should normalise a lot of this stuff. Telling cyclists to get their act together will seem as weird as it would now to tell motorists to stop each other speeding or using the phone.

    And yes, almost everyone breaks road laws all the time. As cyclists we should almost be glad that people are out there committing everyday infractions just like they do in their cars, because it's a sign that ordinary people are using bikes.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. gkgk
    Member

    I found the taxi driver's resigned tone quite heartening. He's trying to rant but the wind just isn't in his sails, I think. A few more people paddling around on bikes and he'll get past seeing them as them-n-us "cyclists".

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. twinspark
    Member

    Had words with somebody on a bike tonight at West Saville Terrace although it was a case of "join the queue" as 2 motorists were (rightly IMHO) having a go at them.

    The reason? The jumped the red lights at KB where they're doing the pavement work. I was waiting at the head of the queue when he ambled past me and carried on round the corner.

    Must say the cars going past me were exemplary when the lights turned green. I'm then pretty sure this character went though the next set of lights against the red.

    Anyway at West Saville Terrace I asked him what the RLJ'ing was about as it hadn't got him anywhere. "Oh you're having a go at me now" was their response. "Well yes because you're what's giving cyclists a bad name".

    Anyway I think the car drivers concerned got the gist that we're not all the same.

    Back OT I would be annoyed with these cyclists RLJ'ing whether I was on the bike, in the car, on a bus or on foot. I think if you watch the film a few times however you will see that the other drivers are not exemplary in their behaviour either, never mind the taxi driver.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. wee folding bike
    Member

    Tammy,

    I would consider an incorrectly set up vehicle actuated light to be faulty and then keep to the code thusly:

    176
    You MUST NOT move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right. If the traffic lights are not working, treat the situation as you would an unmarked junction and proceed with great care.
    [Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 36]

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. 559
    Member

    On this I'am in the black and white camp as a society we cannot pick and choose which rules should apply as we lose any ability to criticise other road users without being open to very justified cries of hypocrisy.
    Is one of the reasons perhaps, that us cyclists feel the need to comment on other cyclists actions, is to fill the vacuum that is the lack of police action on cyclists activity.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. gembo
    Member

    @ crow river, I did not realise that I was describing theplotmof taxi driver but I was. tho this guy is day time filmed when waiting in rank, so indeed taxi driver lite.

    In both movie's when the taxi driver takes the law into his own hands I don't think the audience is supposed to agree with him?

    I am not condoning what he did. I am saying in his mind we gave him justification and I read an awful lot of this string as circumlocution.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  16. Arellcat
    Moderator

    As anyone who's been watching the recent series of Celebrity Masterchef, or in truth, any other show with incredibly long drawn out voting-off segments will realise, it's all in the editing. Host announces preamble, cut to no-hoper, cut to likely winner, cue voiceover shoutout, cut to host, cut to possible winner, cut to group shot, cut to host for announcement. Eight seconds cleverly padded into a whole minute.

    I was beginning to notice the number of people riding on the pavement, through lights, and so on, and then noticed how the taxi driver never seemed to stray into the ASL boxes. 'Hurrah for the taxi driver!' I thought, until the last bit with the ridiculous overtake on Princes St.

    Edit: just realised that I watched the vid with the sound turned off. I never knew there was ribald commentary!

    Posted 12 years ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.


Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin