"And it will be very interesting to see the levels of parking/loading restrictions and enforcement here, compared to the QBC."
Suspect most vehicle owners won't choose to impede a tram.
They don't care about bikes.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Tram latest
(2182 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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It sounds like we can safely assume that the trams will not actually make a net profit until about 2045.
By which time I'll be entitled to my free travel pass. Yay!I don't think there's any doubt that whoever was acting for the council in this agreement, right from the start, did a really really poor job. I've dealt with plenty procurement contracts in my time, and it really does seem like some very very basic checks and controls have been missed off completely!
See also phones & IT contract with BT. And the entire new Royal Infirmary PFI shambles. And probably numerous others I don't know about.I do not believe for one minute that the council has staff who are trained and experienced to the level required for dealing with contracts of this nature. Private sector companies have massive departments to deal with acquiring new business at terms favourable to themselves and loads of legal experts to draft terms and clauses in their favour. No public sector organisation can compete with that and that's why you see stuff like this going on all the time.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"... the entire new Royal Infirmary PFI shambles"
Actually, I know some of the people who worked on that. On the contractor side.
"No public sector organisation can compete with that..."
Not necessarily the case. With Mel working for the NHS for quite some time now the amount of money they spend on external legal advice rather than going to the in-house teams is astonishing.
Oh, and many many boards get themselves into bother by agreeing to things without even considering going for legal advice - not on cost grounds, but because they think they don't need it. And then things go wrong.
And in addition I work for one of those private sector companies that has a massive department supposedly geared towards getting favourable terms - most certainly doesn't guarantee getting the better deal at all.
AND the Council, on the trams, didn't just have wee Johnny in-house lawyer working on this:
"A STAGGERING £9million has been spent by Edinburgh City Council on consultancy fees as a result of the tram fiasco and statutory repairs scandal.
Fury erupted after it emerged the bill for experts, including lawyers, surveyors and project managers, has doubled in the past year"
Trying to find which firm actually carried out the work, but the negotiations with the contractors weren't dealt with in-house, and from what I've seen the Council budget for legal advice was somewhat larger than for the private contractor...
Posted 12 years ago # -
DLA Piper
List of clients includes...
"Transport Initiatives Edinburgh Limited – acting on the procurement and strategy for the delivery of Lines One and Two of the Edinburgh Tram project"Posted 12 years ago # -
Right -
So it's not about public v private, just lawyers v lawyers.
And we all know who wins (allegedly).
Posted 12 years ago # -
No precisely. It's which lawyers did their job best. I think there's a strong case to say that DLA (possibly amongst others, can't imagine there'd just be one firm on a deal this big, but possibly not) weren't up to the task (and they're not cheap).
They'd have had to tender for the work, but I doubt an FOI for the costs would be successful - likely deemed sensitive commercial information.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Is this not the company now working on the new solid platinum bridge for the Forth?
Posted 12 years ago # -
But on the tram.
I've forgotten most of what I used to know, but I seem to remember some things were signed in spite of legal advice.
OT - I think some of the problems over Porty school/Park are due to CEC lawyers.
Posted 12 years ago # -
They did actually have Counsel (QC level I think!) opinion on the Common Land issue for Porty Park.
"I seem to remember some things were signed in spite of legal advice"
All the more insane to pay through the nose for legal advice and then not follow it!
Posted 12 years ago # -
For my sins I do get involved with tram & Light rail projects and Lewis Lesley (along with John Parry of similar style) is a grand old professor with practical skills to deliver, who has managed to fund and develop his light rail ideas on a shoestring, and planning for deliver a light rail route of a similar length to Edinburgh, including on-street running, at no cost to the Council.
John Parry has pioneered both the Parry railcar (now proving itself by having the inspired concept of forming a sub contracting TOC to operate the railcar on the Stourbridge Town branch), and lightweight building systems that save the substantial costs of transport, especially in developing countries. He would love to build more of these vehicles and knows the UK rail network would snap up at least 50 of them if the processes and costs associated with this were less onerous.
Still to cut the story short, I raised a whole life cost issue in a discussion about current schemes, as both Manchester, and now Sheffield are having to dig out rail and renew it with great upheaval and cost, because of the way the original was installed in the street. Sheffield used encapsulated rail, and because burning the encapsulation off the steel produces toxic fumes there is no easy way to separate the rail from the polymer casing, and recycle both, so it all has to go in a skip, and presumably to landfill, or to a place with special processing or lax laws, where the steel can be separated out.
On highlighting this some wag quipped that Edinburgh had already had the cost of replacing rails, before they had even had trams running on them.....
In his presentation Lewis Lesley highlighted the cost per Km for building tram routes, comparing UK with France and Germany, where building is taking place at around 4 new lines per year, and the UK where the rate is 1 new line every 4 years. Edinburgh's cost per mile is staggeringly around 20 times as much as some German and French projects are costing. Not that this is the only failed project. The new Blackpool system began running in April this year through political pressure to get it operating. Much of the detailing is unfinished and may need to be redone, another sorry saga of project management going wrong.
Still there is always a consolation twas ever thus - Brunel's famous Thames Tunnel was promoted to provide a route for cart-loads of cargo under the Thames. They couldn't afford to build the ramps, and the economics of only being able to charge the fixed ferry fare to walk through meant that it would never be profitable simply by normal river-crossing traffic, and so it was turned into an entertainment venue and novelty market, before eventually being connected to a railway line. I wonder if there might be some inspired repurposing ideas for the trams/tramway?
Posted 12 years ago # -
The last two years "we" have mooted a using the princes st tram line to run a pedal train up and down during the Christmas festivities. I reckon it would be a winner.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Edinburgh's cost per mile is staggeringly around 20 times as much as some German and French projects are costing.
I suppose the obvious question here is 'why?'. Why are costs so much more in the UK? Are we using specifications that are way above what we need? Are we paying the contractors too much? Is our project management and cost control just ineffective? Probably not a simple question answer but it would be useful to have an insight.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Does it have anything to do with how much of the "light rail" tram route is on massive concrete pilings, viaducts, flyovers and embankments?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Utility diversions are exactly the sort of cash cow for utility companies - with the attitude that they cannot have things in a sterilised zone under the track slab, and everything that needs to be altered or moved needs to be renewed.
Perhaps there is less claim-staking in other countries, where the authorities may control utilities and tram route, so that such arrangements are made internally.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I had a better look at the access to the railway path up from Russell Road yesterday. I think that the slope of the path is less steep and the path is wider. I don't think it is any worse than before (and (whispers) it might even be better). I'm usually on my road bike (or TT bike) going through there, neither of which do low speed uphill manouevers particularly well, although I agree that neither is a tandem or towing a trailer either.
(And if idiot high-speed descenders like my boyfriend think it is too twisty, then they can slow down...)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Leading architects and developers mounted an outspoken attack at a summit called to discuss how the city should look once the tram is up and running.
"Posted 12 years ago # -
Posted 12 years ago #
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Cause for a "point and laugh" spectation ride incorporating exploration of lands around Airport? (I've a week off, mid-November)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
TRAMS will run on the streets of Edinburgh for the first time later this month – with safety warnings handed out to pedestrians in advance."
Posted 12 years ago # -
"Cause for a "point and laugh" spectation ride"
I'll take the pix!
Posted 12 years ago # -
REALLY? Where? The only on-street section is St Andrew Square to Haymarket, they'd have to truck one in and then it could only rumble up and down a bit.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
officials working on the project will issue safety guidelines to the public urging parents to supervise their children and dog-walkers to keep their pooches on their leads."
And when they've done the tram route they can do the NEPN...Posted 12 years ago # -
kaputnik REALLY? Where? The only on-street section is St Andrew Square to Haymarket, they'd have to truck one in and then it could only rumble up and down a bit.
These are the streets you are looking for (maybe):
"There are four crossings along the 1.7 mile stretch – at Castle Gogar Road, Gogarburn tram stop, Gogar Mains Farm, private road, and Eastfield Avenue at the airport – where there will be signs warning of the testing"
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Uberuce (as part of the stealth thread-within-a-thread). Just writing to say Greg Egan's books are really quite awesome. I'm undecided which end of the scale I like most: The mind-blowing ones or the ones a bit more down to Earth (e..g Zendegi)...
Just had a look at his page, looks like there's a new book out... It's more extreme than any I've yet seen "In Yalda's universe, light has no universal speed and its creation generates energy." for this book there is a "set of notes: more than 80,000 words of text and over a hundred illustrations. The pages marked “[Extra]” go into considerably more detail than the main exposition, and are targeted at readers who have studied some physics and mathematics at an undergraduate level."
woah.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"safety warnings handed out to pedestrians in advance"
I used the Dublin tram ("Luas") last weekend for the first time.
I think there are (or will be) quite a few similarities with Edinburgh.Seemed to work quite well, but wasn't exactly cheap or fast.
Regearding the pre-launch safety measures, according to Wikipedia:
"Before the Luas was launched a Safety Awareness Day was held in Dublin City Centre. Also thousands of reflective armbands were distributed to pedestrians and cyclists, in order to ensure their visibility for tram drivers. This policy seems to have worked as the Luas has been described as being "one of the safest transport systems in the world"."
Maybe the armbands were only needed for the bedding in period as I never saw anyone wearing any.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Trams and armbands bring to mind the Polish ghettos to me... Not really a favourable (or fair) connotation, but there you go.
Posted 12 years ago # -
TRAMS will run on the streets of Edinburgh for the first time later this month – with safety warnings handed out to pedestrians in advance.
Sounds like a grand idea...
Probably needs updated, as walking is too slow - perhaps someone could cycle in front of the trams, ringing their bell?
Robert
Posted 12 years ago # -
Don't be so rude, a recumbent with a flag will be sufficient no need to be crass with a ringing bell. People will get out they way as soon as it is convenient.
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Online forms: Trams - your questionsLots of information about Edinburgh Trams is available on this website. However, if you can't find the answer to your own question please fill in this form and the Tram Team will get back to you as soon as we can.
Use the form to ask questions, comment on the project or pass on any information that you think we need to know!
If you want us to get back to you quickly include your phone number and is you give as much information as you can it will help us to respond.
You can also contact us at any time, 24 hours a day via 0800 328 3934."
https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/forms/form/158/en/trams-your_questions
Posted 12 years ago # -
The 'project management' costs of the tram so far are £256 million, which I find quite disgusting! No wonder it is so much more expensive than a similar system would be in continental Europe.
Having said that, I think that the trams themselves will be a good thing and it's time to leave the Tram Bashing to the lowest common denominator which is the chipwrapper/Scotsman/EEN.
It's a pity that the Trams have ruined some of the cycle infrastructure, but that's not really the fault of the tram itself, more lack of imagination/foresight/consideration from the council.
For almost no additional cost, a cycleroute /could/ have been built alongside the entire length of the tram route. They /could/ have even widened the bridges slightly to allow the path to avoid road crossings...
Given their reputation so far, I would oppose future extension of the trams on to the path network, unless it could be shown that significant improvements will be made to cycling facilities instead of significant degradation.
Posted 12 years ago #
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