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Tram latest

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  1. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    One of the good things about trams is that they are very good at loading/unloading passengers quickly. Currently our 'network' doesn't make very good use of this, because at the point where there is most congestion (Princes Street) there is either nobody getting on (eastbound) or nobody getting off (westbound). Having a route down as far as the bottom of Leith Walk would mean we can get a lot more passengers onto Princes Street without adding any stopping time on Princes Street.

    I hope this would mean they can get rid of a couple of bus routes, but that remains to be seen.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/labour-not-ready-to-give-up-leith-walk-tram-extension-1-3944888

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. Dunedin
    Member

    @Klaxon. In 2011, it was Labour councillors, supported by the Tories, who won the vote to truncate the line to Haymarket. The SNP council group abstained but thankfully the SNP Scottish Government threatened to withhold funding if the line was not completed at least as far as St Andrew Square, forcing the council to overturn the vote. Maybe not just the SNP trying to "vandalise the project", eh?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. neddie
    Member

    Meanwhile England gets on with it:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-34782082

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. ih
    Member

    The BBC report in @edd1e_h's post says a 2013 transport review gives the average cost of new tram track as £20 million per mile. How does the Leith Walk extension get to £144 million? We need a @kaputnik graphic.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "We need a @kaputnik graphic."

    Nah, we (that's everyone) need to see the whole report.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. wingpig
    Member

    "How does the Leith Walk extension get to £144 million"

    £20 million per single rail per mile, with £44 million contingency budget for inevitably something being done shoddily or wrong at some point and having to be re-laid?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. PS
    Member

    Nah, we (that's everyone) need to see the whole report.

    Very true. My feeling is it's not the trams that were the problem, but rather the way in which they were procured. Wrong route prioritised, wrong contractual basis, etc.

    Trams have been shown to work as a means of mass transport in a range of places, but they need to be done right - mass transit between popular places (Edinburgh Uni to the Royal Infirmary springs to mind, and Leith/Newhaven would work if the Western Harbour development is revived); park and rides along prioritised routes; and using them as a catalyst/opportunity to pedestrianize or greatly limit motor vehicle use in your city centre.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. The Boy
    Member

    Tbf, I reckon that a direct link between Leith and Edinburgh Park is a no brainer.

    Also, as much as it saddens me to say it, I reckon a line down the Roseburn Path is, too.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "pedestrianize or greatly limit motor vehicle use in your city centre"

    Indeed - that is an essential part of the way most cities do things.

    Edinburgh is very reluctant to do that.

    On Princes Street the tram doesn't (in practice) even get priority over the 'traffic' - buses and taxis.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/lib-dems-say-labour-should-build-tram-line-despite-snp-1-3946038

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Dunedin
    Member

    http://www.thenational.scot/news/tram-extension-hits-buffers-as-snp-learn-cost.9933

    Edinburgh Council would almost certainly have to borrow almost all of the £144 million required for the extension, and the cost of the line would therefore be well in excess of £200 million.

    Indeed one council source said that if interest rates returned to normal, the cost of the extension would be “nearly £300 million”.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    It's only money.

    Just not 'theirs'...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. chdot
    Admin

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/extending-tramline-won-t-affect-council-budget-1-3947346

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. ih
    Member

    "A report to be considered at next week’s full council meeting says the early costs for taking the trams to Newhaven could be met by using dividend payments from Lothian Buses.

    The rest of the money would be borrowed and loan repayments would be financed from the profits expected to be generated once the extension becomes operational."

    I'm not an economist, but this looks like very 'funny money' to me.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    'funny money'

    Depends how you define it!

    My reading is

    a) LB dividends (profits) that currently go to shareholders (91% CEC).

    b) additional repayments (plus all operating costs) will come from bus and tram fares.

    Apart from the 'why should PT make a profit' question, the issue is whether bus users should subside tram users. I don't have a problem with that, but I think fares will rise significantly to cover all this.

    The existing tram had most of the capital cost paid by SG. This time it will be PT users.

    WE (all) need to see the report to see what extra number of passenger trips are imagined, what the fare increase projection is and what interest rates are assumed to be.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. acsimpson
    Member

    Council leader Andrew Burns said: “If the decision was to go ahead, the project can be funded without any impact on the short, medium or long-term revenue budget for the council.”

    If it wasn't for the word revenue in that sentence then it might not be completely meaningless.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    There are cheaper ways to build tram lines, if you don't have Lothian Buses' finest hammering up and down every hour of the day.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. ih
    Member

    Thanks @chdot for the explanation, but there seem to be at least 2 sleights of accounting here. Presumably, the LB dividends accruing to the Council would have been spent somewhere else, so there will be budgetary consequences, and 'profits expected to be generated' is a little speculative.

    We do need to see the full report, and I would like to know why the extension will cost £144 million, when the rails and trams have already been bought, and the average cost for developing tram routes is reported elsewhere as £20 million per mile.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "Presumably, the LB dividends accruing to the Council would have been spent somewhere else, so there will be budgetary consequences"

    I think that's what any sane person with the most basic understanding of 'money' would conclude!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Klaxon
    Member

    Having read thru the public version of the report - Meeting of Nov 19 item 8.5b - my interpretation is that the LB dividend has been held partially ringfenced for the past few years to a total of 5M (point 3.51). This will mean a much softer blow to other budgets than if the whole dividend was reduced in one swipe. They propose the remainder of non-loan costs associated with startup to be covered by LB (£20m 2017-2020) and then afterwards given accurate projections the tram will begin to be a net contributor (point 3.57)

    Point 3.54 puts the startup shortfall risk of 10% less passengers at 11m and a 25% cost overrun at 6m.

    But every recent rail reopening has blown thru it's passenger numbers (Larkhall, Bathgate, Alloa, Borders) and there's the casual impact of construction maybe restarting at Western Harbour with associated council tax revenues. The current line if I recall correctly won't cover costs, ever, unless completed per original business case.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    "every recent rail reopening has blown thru it's passenger numbers"

    Not really a good advert for forecasting!

    But that's not really comparable, trains are significant faster than buses.

    There have never been projections that anticipate significant switches from car to tram, so most have and, likely in the future, come from buses - it's still not clear how much extra revenue the tram has generated - unless there are deliberate measures to discourage car use...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    How can this possibly be true??

    "

    Cllr Burns was unable to say how much profit the trams were expected to make because the figures are regarded as commercially confidential.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/bus-fare-hike-to-help-pay-for-tram-extension-1-3948283

    How many competing tram companies are there?

    Or companies likely to want to try to build more lines or want to buy the existing company?

    Of course there may be bus companies that might like to know full details - but they should be able to work out that the (LB) buses are likely to have to subsidIse the trams - by putting fares up.

    Should be relatively easily for other companies to pick potentially profitable routes and undercut LB.

    Of course it's happened before, but Lothian Regional Transport was strong enough and smart enough to see the rivals off.

    This time the price (fare) difference might be bigger.

    In addition, any sort of 'bus war' will NOT benefit people on bikes or pedestrians.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "

    City leaders insisted on Friday that the proposals to take the tram down Leith Walk could be funded without affecting the council’s day-to-day budget. But a report recommending the go-ahead for the extended route raises the prospect of bus passengers having to help foot the bill, despite earlier assurances buses would not be used to subsidise the trams.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/sir-tom-farmer-says-trams-should-go-to-leith-1-3949116

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Transport convener Lesley Hinds said the council was determined to get the project right this time and not repeat mistakes from the original tram scheme.

    She said: “We have learned from the last project. We need to make sure we have everything in place before we go out to ask for bids.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-trams-would-take-6-years-despite-work-done-claims-1-3950132

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Car use to work is lower here compared to the city average of 41.0 per cent, with 34.6 per cent in Leith and 25.5 per cent in Leith Walk travelling by car.

    Increasing public transport use and decreasing car use is key to making our city work. In 2014 six million extra passenger journeys were taken over the previous year ,with three million by bus and three million by tram.

    Changing travel to work patterns is also good for the environment. Leith now has two air quality management areas where air pollution is an issue. Travel figures show that this is a problem visited upon Leith as opposed to one created by Leith

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/gordon-munro-build-tram-tracks-to-leith-1-3949139#ixzz3rkMSUiHd

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    This is a time when our city councillors must rise above party politics. They should vote on Thursday to finish off the job – because it is the right thing to do for Edinburgh.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/comment-time-to-finish-off-trams-1-3950170#ixzz3rkN6Gw34

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Klaxon
    Member

    Something of an amusing cognitive dissonance amongst the EEN commenters who both complain about the mismanagement of the original project and the long timeline in developing a robust tender for any extension.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/leith-trams-would-take-6-years-despite-work-done-claims-1-3950132

    Leith trams would take 6 years despite ‘work done’ claims

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    Yeah well it's 'well known' that (some) diversion of services work on LW wasn't done properly, so would have to be done again.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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