Yep. That's anti-pedestrian surfacing. Widely condemned by Living Streets and Spokes.
Another "detail" in the design that's been allowed to be changed willy-nilly without any consultation.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Tram latest
(2182 posts)-
Posted 2 years ago #
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No, it’s grasscrete. It’ll look similar to this: https://www.externalworksindex.co.uk/entry/151251/Grass-Concrete/Greenspace-solution-for-Metrolink-Salford-Quays/. You can see on the designs where it’ll be used: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/tramstonewhaven/downloads/file/543/final-landscaping-designs
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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The photos of the Leith Walk cycle track on the Skyscraper City site are something to behold. How is it possible to get something so wrong when you start with a blank canvas?
At least we know where cyclists stand in the order of things - somewhere below concerns about on-street bin storage.
I suspect some of the ridiculous twisty-turny-ness of the cycle track derives from a desire to ensure that cyclists don't go too fast down the lanes.
Of course, its actual effect will be inconvenience and confusion for a lot of folk, and no doubt there will still be a few cyclists who tear down it at high speed but now with added weaving.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I suspect some of the ridiculous twisty-turny-ness of the cycle track derives from a desire to ensure that cyclists don't go too fast down the lanes.
You are right.
(Confirmed by Cllr McVey in an email).
Posted 2 years ago # -
“I suspect some of the ridiculous twisty-turny-ness of the cycle track derives from a desire to ensure that cyclists don't go too fast down the lanes.“
I’m sure that has been/is a ‘concern’.
Less convinced that any of what’s on the ground has been “deliberately” designed for that reason.
Either way, convenience and general safety (for pedestrians AND cyclists) have clearly not been ‘major priorities in the design process’.
Posted 2 years ago # -
@PS - good call. I suppose we will have to wait to see the uphill lane to know whether this is right!
Posted 2 years ago # -
“Confirmed by Cllr McVey in an email“
Confirmed what?
That (potential) speeds of bikes/riders has been raised as a problem and designers were told to consider how to deal with it?
No doubt.
That they went away, considered “best practice” and learned/improved?
NO!
Posted 2 years ago # -
“I suppose we will have to wait to see the uphill lane to know whether this is right!”
Indeed
BUT
Surely what’s about to appear on the ground has been available on paper/screen for a while(?)
Posted 2 years ago # -
Yes - concerns about cyclist speeds at certain locations (mainly bus stops) were the reason for including tight turns. Gentler turns, which would be more accommodating for non-standard bikes, were ruled out as they wouldn't force cyclists to slow down as much.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Odd that the carriageway used by 44 tonne trucks is completely straight then.
Posted 2 years ago # -
So, ‘fast’ riders will slavishly follow the kerbline and slow down significantly?
I’m no fan of rumble strips or ramps but I’m sure they would be more effective AND maintain more space for pedestrians…
Posted 2 years ago # -
I had a quick look at Cycling by Design.
Relevant section seems to be pages 98-102. I note that the cycle lanes in the diagrams are straight wherever possible, and have sweeping curves where not.
The recommendations for slowing cyclists down are (in the order that they should be considered/used):
Visual narrowing.
Physical narrowing.
Rumble strips.I can't see any mention of tight corners.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Thanks for looking that up.
“I can't see any mention of tight corners.
Not like they’ve managed “tight corners” in last photo!
Posted 2 years ago # -
Not like they’ve managed “tight corners” in last photo!
They kinda look like they'd be fun to ride fast, if no-one else was around. A little bit of swerving and swooping, shoulder down etc. But it's not a street where no-one will be around, so it will likely be a pain for all concerned.
The other thing the designers will probably point to is that "confident cyclists" will prefer to stay on the straight, easy to follow road as they will keep up to speed with motor traffic especially when heading downhill.
I'd usually put myself in that category, but I also know that drivers on Leith Walk do unpredictable, unexpected and downright illegal things, so I'd quite like to have a good, straight and relatively fast cycle route that doesn't involve me taking my life in my hands. One that less confident cyclists could use as well. A good practice one that didn't weave around the pavement creating conflict with pedestrians. It might even have given more space to folk on foot.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Here's a video: https://twitter.com/overlandertheb1/status/1491419250199695361
From 30 seconds you have the issue of folk walking straight, onto what turns into the cycle track because it does its twisty bit round the bins.
The other thing the designers will probably point to is that "confident cyclists" will prefer to stay on the straight, easy to follow road as they will keep up to speed with motor traffic especially when heading downhill.
Is there always a running lane which is free of tram tracks available alongside the cycle track?Posted 2 years ago # -
So
The wiggly bit around the ‘bins lay-by’(?) creates a REALLY narrow bit of pavement.
Epic fail.
Where is the effective pedestrian campaign when you need one?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Great to see that bin storage is now firmly entrenched in the long list of “things CEC prioritises above pedestrians and cyclists”.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Looking at these photos, what really strikes me is how wasteful the layout and design are. If you look at street design in Copenhagen or the Netherlands it is all quite simple. Footway next to the buildings - kerb - cycle lane - kerb - carriageway. No fancy materials - generally just concrete kerbs and tarmac. The issue of the door zone next to parked cars is simply dealt with by having wide cycle lanes, rather than some weird dead zone that is neither pavement nor cycle lane. Bins don't sit on street 24/7 for the two minutes a week it takes empty them, but kept out the way.
Why can't we learn from the places that have done this already?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Great to see that bin storage is now firmly entrenched in the long list of “things CEC prioritises above pedestrians and cyclists”.
And drains, for when they can't be bothered to add a drain/gully extender thingy I've seen used on other pavement widening projects: https://twitter.com/overlandertheb1/status/1491419263898624004/photo/2Posted 2 years ago # -
No trams beyond Shandwick Place for a while.
This will be good news for drivers moaning about trams creating congestion... except the roads are just as jammed proving road capacity is overloaded anyway!
Meanwhile you wonder how this lack of flexibility wasn't thought of (or maybe no surprise!) St Andrew Square would be natural place to stop but no crossing there or power isolation.
Not all tram users are fliers. The system can be useful for getting into city but Shandwick Place is not that great a terminus.
I asked ET on twitter when the whole route would be restored but no answer yet!Posted 2 years ago # -
The email newsletter said that trams will terminate in St Andrew Square from April 2022.
Presumably at this point they'll have removed the old York Place stop and done all the work they need to do there, allowing the crossover to be used again?
A couple of months of disruption probably not worth an extra crossover in the grand scheme of things I suppose
Posted 2 years ago # -
Have we heard anything back from Our Glorious Leaders since they indicated they were going to meet with the contractors about the shambolic cycle track implementation and see what remedial options were available?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Are there aspects where the contractors have deviated from the plan? I thought the main outcry seemed to be people who hadn't seen the plans (reasonably) going "what on earth is this?!"
Posted 2 years ago # -
@jonty The issue is there weren't really "plans" so much as "outlines", and it's a design and build contract so the builders just did whatever they wanted. Sharp angles, inconsistent crossings(some are proper mini-zebras, others the cycle lane just stops and you get little patches of "shared space" with mental arrangements of tactiles), cut-ins that force the cycle lane to take sharp angled corners which brings cyclists and pedestrians into conflict in the narrowed space(some look to be for bins, others seemingly just because they couldn't be arsed redoing the access hatch for utilities, a few are apparently intentional to slow cyclists down "for safety" but just put everyone in more danger), they've laid the tarmac by hand and as soon as it rained it was obvious that it's going to be bumpy as hell to ride on...the whole thing is shambolic.
The main focus at the moment is the constant little sharp deviations.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Does the contract not require them to meet some design standards. Ideally cycling by design but any standard would be better than none.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The final designs are here. I've not examined the route in detail but I haven't noticed any major deviation from it : https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/tramstonewhaven/final-designs
I guess there's a few "public realm to be finalised" bits that they might have messed up.
But fundamentally the contractors have built the route that was specified to them by the council, and we shouldn't let the council pass the buck.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Meeting with active travel stakeholders tomorrow. Should be some news on proposed "mitigation" measures.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Spokes was at the meeting today and we were joined by Cllr Macinnes who had been on site recently. Tram team are going to be looking at feasibility of (literally) straightening out some of the issues and have done a review of what has been built against what was in the plans. They are investigating a brighter coloured surface to improve differentiation between the cycleway and carriageway. Still looking for a solution to provide increased level (Grade) separation. They have acknowledged the uneven surface and poor quality of the edges where the surface is breaking up and are aiming to redo.(Apparently the carriageway has similar problems.) They will look at whether changes can be incorporated directly into east side construction phase.
Further details soon we hope. Previously heard that the lamp-posts should be moved by the end of the month.
The cycleway will not be "opened" until all works complete. Apparently additional signs have been put up saying "cycleway closed" (blue signs on lamp-posts) - I didn't notice any, but I don't look at lamp-posts when cycling!Posted 2 years ago #
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