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Tram latest

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "
    (v) The costs of tram and infrastructure refurbishment will be borne by the Council

    (viii) Tramco will be entitled to determine tram fare levels, with CEC having full visibility and being consulted

    2.3.4 The financial model for tram operations is based on the business model verified by Atkins in 2011 and developed in 2012 using updated patronage and cost forecasts from Steer Davies Gleave and Lothian Buses. If running costs are higher or patronage/revenues are lower than set out in that business case, the Council will bear the financial risk.

    ...

    “Tram Maintenance Costs” means the costs of Tram Maintenance; “Tram Refurbishment” means the refurbishment of the tram vehicles; “Tram Refurbishment Costs” means the costs of Tram Refurbishment

    ...

    No warranty required by Tramco.
    Tramco to be held harmless by CEC from shortfalls in revenue caused by failure to remedy infrastructure or vehicle defects within a reasonable period of time.

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/37948/item_no_81-edinburgh_tram-operating_agreement

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "
    A new company to be set up to run Edinburgh’s trams would have no financial incentive to maximise revenues under proposed arrangements, council chiefs have admitted.

    "

    http://m.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/new-trams-firm-will-have-no-drive-for-efficiency-1-2766508

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. steveo
    Member

    likely to be known as Lothian Transport Ltd (TopCo)

    TopCo!!! Bloody hell, someone is taking the mickey!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. steveo
    Member

    Frankly separating LB from the Trams fiasco is probably the best outcome for the moment whilst there is no drive to make money as such, hands up who thinks any structure or operator could make money in the first couple of years?

    If/When the trams prove profitable an auction could be set up to allow any operator a chance to run the trams with the obvious proviso that only LB could actually turn it into a network...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. neddie
    Member

    Why do the trams have to make a profit at all?

    Do motorways make a profit?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Edinburgh Reporter (@EdinReporter)
    31/01/2013 12:22
    Edinburgh Council Leader @AndrewDBurns is meeting Transport Minister next week about trams... #edincouncil

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. chdot
    Admin

    “It is important for the people of Edinburgh that we seek to recoup any costs that should not have been incurred.”

    http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/transport/tram-chiefs-may-sue-firms-over-project-advice-1-2762485

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Litigation? The lawyers win, everyone else loses.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Edinburgh Trams (@EdinburghTrams)
    07/02/2013 12:03
    The Council is to look at ways of developing a scheme to allow concessionary travel on the trams. More here

    http://bit.ly/XX8D9E

    "

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. Tulyar
    Member

    Maybe they should have had these guys laying the track - weather and ground conditions in Edinburgh would seem like a walk in the park to these guys

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    I believe that Edinburgh is using something similar to this system for track construction but it seems to be taking far longer that this video shows for a project being delivered in Utrecht

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. cc
    Member

    The Edinburgh work isn't exactly being done with any sense of urgency, whenever I see the track building sites they're deserted.

    Mind you the Edinburgh tracks aren't just replacements for existing track as in that Utrecht example so it will take longer here.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @cc that's unfair. I regularly see 3 or 4 vans parked on the cycle path alongside the Bankhead flyover and at least 5 if not 6 men standing around looking at things.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. Tulyar
    Member

    I think that's the point @kaputnik lots of people looking at things. The US has seen around 80 new streetcar systems built with some very clear perspectives to connect developments with city centres.

    Wirral Waters is a scheme currently being developed almost entirely on land owned by Peel Holdings, and avoiding as far as possible any reliance on public funding (because of the caveats and delays it can bring in). It also has some great clarity in where the tracks should be - an absolute minimum of on-street operation, as this will destroy the opportunity to operate a reliable timetable, and push up costs.

    They have also secured secondhand trams (completely stripped down and refurbished) to start the services with - bringing in revenue early, whilst keeping start-up costs down (Toronto did a similar coup by buying up old US PCC trams to enhance their own fleet when US was ripping up tracks). Wirral has also sourced secondhand substations, from another DC rail system which is upgrading their power capacity, again keeping start-up costs down.

    In the UK we have a record of building a new system every 4 years, in other parts of Europe they are building 4 new systems or route extensions every year.

    The March Tramways and Urban Transit (out next week) includes a feature on the serious mismatch between costs for building tram track in the UK and elsewhere. One commentator noted that the cheaper schemes were costing around 1/20th of the price being paid in Edinburgh.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Coxy
    Member

    The tram platform is now 'open' outside Haymarket station. If you are heading down to Haymarket Yards, you can get straight on the tram tracks and don't have to get involved with Taxi-geddon on Haymarket Terrace.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. wingpig
    Member

    Can anyone with any first-hand civil engineering experience please resolve something for me?

    On Shandwick Place they've now almost finished surrounding the rails in epoxy-smelling concrete. However, it looks like they forgot to remove the bits of plywood from the ends of some sections before pouring the next section along:

    The protruding bits of the wooden dividers are subsequently being kicked off, driven flat or just allowed to rot away.

    Will the remaining unrotted bits of wood that the wind is unable to scour away and the rain unable to wash away eventually be scraped out with a pointy stick so that the gap can be filled with something resistant to being chipped away by buses' wheels or is the rotted-wood gap thing some sort of modern system for allowing the surface to expand and contract with the seasons, hopefully without buses' wheels chipping away at all the extra corners?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "

    London Tramlink should:
    a. taking into account the improvements made to the configuration of the approach to the foot crossing at the west end of Sandilands, consider whether further action is desirable to improve pedestrians’ view of approaching trams as they walk from the bus stop towards the entrance to the west end of Sandilands tram stop, and implement any changes that they deem to be reasonably practicable;
    b. conduct a review of the approaches to all other foot crossings
    on the system from all credible directions to determine whether similar obstructions exist elsewhere, and if so, whether they can be removed; and
    c. embed within its processes for new works in and around the tramway the requirement to consider pedestrian sight lines from all credible approaches to the crossing before approving the positioning of equipment and other infrastructure (paragraph 116a).

    "

    http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130214_R032013_Sandilands.pdf

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Tulyar
    Member

    Chris's extract taken from the recently published report onto pedestrian injury after being trapped between tram and platform. (Extract from Recommendations highlighted in orange)

    This may have some implications for crossings of tram route, discussed in detail at para 116 et seq in body of the report. An earlier cycle fatality with tram (Morden) found path approach to crossing had a possible causal connection though approaching the crossing facing away from approaching tram.

    In answer to @wingpig - in theory the timber strips should be easily removed (doesn't work so well with concrete and basic deal) and a poured polymer filler goes in to keep water out - especially to stop freeze (expansion) frost damage. Very rigid concrete 'units/panels) have to have some movement, otherwise as ground movement takes place they crack (like concrete panel roads). These are movement joints. Depending on the compound used there can be issues with weather and priming the surfaces. Expensive and quality compound can be used in wet weather and temperature range 3-80 degrees C (with colder temp acceptable if joint is warmed to remove frost) Cheaper materials often restricted and need more preparation.

    From the picture it looks as if the quality is substantially improved on sections in Princes Street, but of course it has yet to get poured seals and tarmac butting up to faces.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    News just in -

    "

    Thank you for your email.

    There are two crossings over the rails at either end of the Edinburgh Park Tram Stop. As stated is previous emails concerns were raised on this design by both the operator and the Independent Competent Person (who assesses the design in place of the HMRI since the rail safety regulations changed). They expressed concerns about cyclists interacting with passengers on the actual platform and at the tram rail crossings. Cyclists are not permitted to use these crossings as concerns were raised during the design process about the safety of pedestrians. The through route for cyclists is to the north of the platform and under the Edinburgh Park Viaduct before connecting back to the road network.

    Any cyclists travelling to Hermiston Gate shopping centre will require to dismount before crossing the tram rails at the Tram Stop. Any enforcement of these crossing would be a matter for Lothian and Borders Police.

    Cyclists are not permitted to cycle on any platforms or the crossings at the end of these platforms.

    I trust this is of assistance.

    regards

    "

    Previously -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8710&page=6#post-97862

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. Tulyar
    Member

    Obviously need to re read the story of King Canute, and trying to enforce a regime which would appear to runs counter to the intuitive/local needs?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    You might like to look at the StreetView images of what it used to look like (and do some screen grabs before they get updated).

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Cyclists are not permitted to use these crossings as concerns were raised....

    Any cyclists travelling to Hermiston Gate shopping centre will require to dismount before crossing the tram rails...

    Cyclists are not permitted to cycle on any platforms or the crossings at the end of these platforms.

    I hate CEC and I hate Edinburgh Trams' stupid, conceited, self-satisfied, blinkered handling of the whole project. They could have designed in a solution for bikes, but they couldn't be bothered, and the usual excuse of 'oh, it would have been too expensive' is proffered every time their judgement is questioned, when time and again their design has been found wanting by the very people who would use it. Instead we're given yet another useless facility that's more trouble and possibly more hazard-filled than using the bloody road in the first place. Which of course is right where they would like us, not clogging up their precious marble-topped platforms.

    The through route for cyclists is to the north of the platform and under the Edinburgh Park Viaduct before connecting back to the road network.

    This doesn't even make any sense. If they mean to use Lochside Crescent west to the viaduct, then loop around using Lochside Avenue to rejoin the main road at the huge roundabout, I can't see many cyclists using that route by preference. CEC/ET seems to have forgotten that Edinburgh Park is actually a through-route for lots of cyclists, not just a getting-on and getting-off point for the train, where cyclists walking their bikes is actually the point, and that people using their own energy like to find ways to not have to go the long way around every time. Poor Min's frustrations are a prime example.

    What does CEC/ET have to say about handcyclists who, by the nature of their transport, cannot dismount on the whim of a sign?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Sorry, competent? Just what is this person meant to be competent at exactly?

    What a load of utter crap, honestly. How can you raise concerns about something that wasn't there and has never happened? Sounds like they've made a concerted attempt to design cycling out of Hermiston Gait.

    I assume the independent incompetent person has never seen a Toucan crossing working. Or ANY OTHER EUROPEAN CITY WITH TRAMS.

    What a complete joke. Ive found a new target for my email writing.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. Charterhall
    Member

    @chdot who was that a reply from ?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    Tram Team/Level 2.2 Waverley Court, 4 East Market Street, Edinburgh EH8 8BG, Tel:0131 529 7639

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. Charterhall
    Member

    What's their email address ?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    Try trams@edinburgh.gov.uk (I got reply from named person).

    CC councillor(s) of your choice.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. fimm
    Member

    But it won't work anyway. People won't get off their bikes. Are they really going to get the police involved when the police won't enforce the 20mph limit, for example?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  30. Tulyar
    Member

    There was a time when we had Her/His Majesty's Railway Inspectorate, generally staffed by retired majors and generals, with a career of experience in the Royal Corps of Transport, Railway Battalions.

    Straight talking, but often with a pragmatism which recognised what people would do rather than what people should do, and you might find the discussion about the decision to cut up £2m worth of Class 66 loco lying down the bank at Loch Trieg 'interesting', rather than recovering it complete and putting it back in service.

    (Story in SoS last week)

    @arellcat might well fume however at some of the commentary concerning those who in immediate post-war (39-45) were referred to a dilutees - fast tracked into trades with wartime austerity apprenticeship-lite training, and a current image of a spotty (and intimated to be skirt-wearing) sociology/classics/history graduate parachuted in to engineering management positions <ducks>.

    Hence one might conclude that as some in such posts cannot justifyably use the title engineer they need to be called a responsible person, rather than a qualified one.

    The modern diffusion of responsibilities and roles is confusing - I've tripped up on this one, as those researching rail level crossings don't now deal with on street tram tracks despite some obvious similarities, whilst both are technically governed through ORR and the same RAIB delivers the inquiries which were formerly the remit of HMRI for both trams and trains, and perhaps (although we've yet to have any serious incident) any guided busways, under the umbrella of Rail and Other Guided Systems (ROGS). It can get very frustrating, and convoluted.

    By way of reflection there is another tram project being developed, where the start-up costs are being rather neatly managed down - they have options on DC sub stations being replaced by a power supply upgrade on London Underground - good for another 20-30 years, and have bought some secondhand trams and given them a radical overhaul, again giving a low cost way to get the service running and earn money. If the work programme of the Edinburgh tram had been organised in a slightly different way, we might by now be seeing a shuttle service between Edinburgh Park and the Airport, or a temporary terminus nearby, earning money and getting the trams properly run-in, whilst other work progressively got the route Eastwards.

    @arellcat has a couple of pictures which make an interesting comparison between rail and tram building speeds. The foundations for the Stonehouse tram bridge are in place and wayleave corridor for the tram tracks being cleared, but the 4 railway tracks have no apparent presence of 25kV overhead wiring. In a later picture the wires are up and trains running via Bathgate to Glasgow, but the shuttering is still up for the pouring of the tram bridge parapets and the approach embankment not yet finished.

    By way of contrast here's how a railway might have laid the off-street tracks... typically for a renewal project this work goes ahead at over 2 Km of plain line per day,

    [+] Embed the video | http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=piBEReyydBU&feature=endscreen" target="_blank">Video DownloadGet the Video Player

    Posted 11 years ago #

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