I'm a bit fed up with the macho types who insist on having their super-bright front lights pointing straight into the eyes of oncoming cyclists and so blinding them, particularly on the shared paths where they are way over the top.They were designed primarily for off-road, night time mountain biking but are just plain dangerous when used on shared paths.If the lights are pointed down at the road in front and not horizontally or upwards into oncoming eyes things would be a lot safer. (I use a 3W German regulations front LED, pointing to the road which is all you should need!!)
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Handlebar mounted searchlights
(32 posts)-
Posted 12 years ago #
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hello big jack
We the grumpy old men and women of this forum salute you. This year our moaning about bright lights has increased. I think the price has come down for very bright lights so lots of folk have them. Presumably they too are being blinded by other bright light coming the other way but their retinas have burned through and their brains hurt? So much that they can't work out the dip to the left?
one thing though, it is not searchlights, it is FLOODLIGHTS
My brain hurts
Grumpy Gumby Gembo
Posted 12 years ago # -
I must admit that if I had bought my front light with my brain and not my yarbles I could have saved myself about sixty quid. In fact two of the three times I've had the faintest need of the higher settings were the equivalent of your average Chelsea tractor jockey going to a marqueed event and using the field set aside as a car park. Nicer, but the normal version would have coped so the feeling of purchase justification was unwarranted.
I've only actually been in one situation where the eye-destroying highest setting would have reduced my risk of coming a cropper without bothering anyone else, and I couldn't even use it since I hadn't topped up the battery the day before and still had many unlit miles to go.
On the rare times I cycle the canal at night I either set it right down to 40 lumen Walk mode, which is a mighty 6.2% of the maximum and use the UFO guidance system to detect people, or I get really really drunk, floodlight the place on 650 lumens then fall in.
One of these is a bad plan, mind.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Also flashing lights. This is really a pet hate of mine, as it can make it so hard to know where people actually are.
So far I've spent an embarrassing few seconds not overtaking someone because of an oncoming cyclist about 500m away and yet also got into a couple of squeezes which might have been avoided if there had been something steady to focus on (although I suppose there's a good argument that I should just assume all such riders are close if I can't immediately tell).
I sometimes think there are only four types of rider on the paths:
- almighty laser beams
- mysterious flashers
- no lights (fine by me, since it's all streetlit. Different story on the canal though?)
- me</semi-joking>
Posted 12 years ago # -
I imagine chdot will be along shortly to lock this and direct us here, which I shall bump in a jiffy: http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=8801
(Not as a slight against, you, BigJack, but just because it covers the same topic.)
Posted 12 years ago # -
Perhaps 'we' should settle on a simple remark that can be used when 'blinded'.
If the offender hears the same thing more than once they might get the message.
"Too bright" springs to mind. It may not be strictly accurate but it's shorter than 'please point your lights away from my eyes.
Posted 12 years ago # -
On flashers, I suspect most people don't realise there is any 'harder to work out where you are' factor.
I think flashers help drivers 'think bike' which is obviously a good thing.
Are flashers unnecessary/counterproductive on off-road paths?
Posted 12 years ago # -
if flashing lights make it hard to tell where someone is, is it a sign that one (or both) of you is going too fast for the light conditions anyway?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I don't think so. If you can't tell where someone is then you can't tell where they are, it doesn't matter whether you are at a standstill or going at 20mph. I definitely think they are counterproductive on off road paths.
I have seen two different cyclists with flashing white lights at the back. Very confusing.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I saw a new type of flashing yesterday, or not so much flashing as strobing rapidly. Quite bright too. It wasn't directed at my eyes so no harm done.
Also I've noticed that the light on my paper bike sometimes illuminates road signs hundreds of yards ahead, so I was looking forward to the who's-the-brightest PY Special so I could check it's not being wildly antisocial, but sadly I can't make it to PY before work any time before Christmas. Except, hmm, this coming Monday, so I may venture along and say hello to Mr W Cow at least seeing as he's there most days.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I always turn my (flashing) battery front light off on the canal but then since that is about 1/3 of my evening commute it helps eek out the battery plus its not very well shaped so some spill ends up in my eyes and its annoying.
I like a flashing light to accompany a solid. As said the solid light is easier to place but a flashing light more quickly identifies the source as a bike.... Whether this is a good thing i'm still unsure.
Posted 12 years ago # -
cc: there's a chap in my neighbourhood who rides a dynamo-lit Paper Bicycle too and you're fine. It's a bright light for suresy, but not offensive.
I found upon going from my very spotlight-ish Smart 35 to the round pattern of the NiteRider Lumina 650 that street signs and brickie vests etc. were jumping out even on the lowest setting.
On testing with brief forays into the higher settings, I think it says more about how good a clean Scotchlite-type internal reflector surface is than anything else.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Uberuce - thanks!!
Posted 12 years ago # -
Something that entertains on a recumbent: seeing all the road signs for traffic going the other way in your mirror, strobing red for hundreds of yards out :)
Posted 12 years ago # -
if flashing lights make it hard to tell where someone is, is it a sign that one (or both) of you is going too fast for the light conditions anyway?
perhaps - but it can be just as hard if you are stationary and the light is moving, or vice versa.
Perhaps bicycle light designers should take inspiration from the stobe lights used on aircraft and tall buildings, which pulse once every few seconds. There's really no need for a light that flashes multiple times a second.
Also I've noticed that the light on my paper bike sometimes illuminates road signs hundreds of yards ahead
I have noticed this too - modern streetsigns are retroreflective, and amazingly effective at that. It works on (clean) parking cones and hiviz cycling gear too.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think the best solution is the flare lights that are a fairly bright solid light with a pulse of brighter light from the same source.
Pulsing less than a few Hz would be fairly dangerous in a city situation where things are happening quite quickly and the users are not paying sufficient attention. The strobes on a plane work because the space they inhabit is not nearly so busy.
Posted 12 years ago # -
SRD: I'm trying but failing to find a light manufacturer that just tells you what the frequency of their blinky is and how long each lit period is. I think (but am not cyborg enough to measure) that the flash modes on my Smart lights and CherryBomb are equal time on and off, but I think the NiteRider is actually off most of the time, and just exploits persistence of vision for the battery's sake. I'm pretty sure I've seen many blinkies which mostly off.
From rough counting of my current lights against a clock I'd guess 5-10 Hz is the norm for decent devices(which I think mine now are) but the guff ones I used to use were probably on half that.
11mph is 5 m/s, 22.5mph is 10 m/s, so if your blink speed is in line with your riding speed, you'll only be unlit for a metre at a time, but if you've done the luminous equivalent of grannyring and tiny rear cog, you could travel about three metres between each blink.
If Roibeard's scenario in the other thread, of the Other Person looking at the moment your light had just blinked off, you'd travel three metres in complete ninja mode and then blink once.
That tells the Other Person you exist and are pointed somewhere in the 180 degree arc we can call 'towards them' but nothing about your speed.
You then travel another three metres before the Other Person had any chance of determining speed and exact direction, but you've got to concentrate to do that, or at least I do. At least another blink to be sure by which time you've travelled nine metres. That's about the width of two lanes, isn't it?
The obvious solution (aside from solid mode)is to have the 10-15Hz blinky, but they are extremely uncomfortable if not dangerous for anyone with photosenstive epilepsy, so: No.
I might have said it already in this thread or the other one, but I've seen a light with a randomised and (on average) slow flash pattern that took this problem and made it worse. It drew my attention pretty well, which is presumably the point, but it drew it in that 'ha! you can't figure out where I'm going and now you have to pay attention until you can! Ha!. Also Ha!' way, and since I was going up Shandon/Ashley at the time I had plenty to think about already, thankyouvurrymuch.
TL:DR - Blinkies suck in general, and I think kaputnik's mistaken in suggesting plane style sub-1Hz frequency.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I think a lot of cyclists seem to think that flash is better than not-flash because flash says "cyclist". I do think that the ideal would be to run two lights, one on flash and one not. That gives you the "HELLO!!! CYCLIST HERE!!!" of the flash, with the ability to locate from the non-flash.
(I do this with the rear lights on both Brompton and road bikes (I am too lazy to move lights between bikes, so have completely separate sets).) Rear flash is good, I think, especially in areas with street lights - I don't think many people are disputing that?
I guess the very bright front lights are part of the "cycling is dangerous and all other road users must be treated as though they are asleep or completely unhinged" culture we seem to have? Maybe?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I run my rear light in "Knightrider" mode - it has 4 LEDs in a row, and rather than flash on and off at once, they do so in a wave, so the light appears to move left to right across the way and then back again. It's fairly slow, with each light changing every 1/2 or 1/3 of a secondish.
It has a disco function of random flashing, but I don't like that so much.
The Moon Comet rear light I got off the Bike Chain I run in solid, but it has a flash mode of 2 frequencies and a completely useless strobe mode which is so fast as to be suitable for stop-frame animation effects. Perhaps would be useful only in an emergency if you had pulled onto the verge for some reason and wanted to create a hazard warning.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I have a small light on the front and the rule of thumb I stick to blinking in populated situations (Roseburn path or roads), steady in non-populatated situations (A90 path for instance) but always pointed down just a metre or so infront of me.
My reasoning to the use of blinking is that I feel the difference as opposed to the steady beam is more eye catching and so more visible. So where I don't need the light to see where I'm actually going, it's used to be seen.
Back light is permanently set to blinking for the same eye attention grabbing reason.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@kaps "it has 4 LEDs in a row, and rather than flash on and off at once, they do so in a wave"
Yep, thats what I do with my bodged 'cap light', the other rear is the mental flashing of the 1W Cherrybomb.
@Bigjack - IMO the problem here is where these lights are pointing, not that they are superbright - and that is no different or acceptable than a poorly adjusted car headlamp.
My front light is several hundred lumens, and I keep it on high pretty much all the time as parts of my commute are on less well lit paths (and roads - past makro, lights been out for 3 years!).
Posted 12 years ago # -
I have the answer.
All cycles shall cary on a 1m high pole a burning brazier, full of wood and suchlike. This shall have many benefits:
- A solid illumination, all the better for judging distance
- Definitely not a boring solid light which will disappear into the background illumination
- True all round visibility
- Warmth on those cold early morning commutes
It's a clear winner. I'll take orders on here, to be followed up with £20 per brazier in used five pence pieces.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I proposed Bobby Dazzler on another threadnasthe remark to make when blinded by the light of others.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Have to agree with most of your comments-I knew you were all a reasonable, intelligent lot!
In summary:Super bright front lights(steady or flashing)= bad on shared-use cycle-paths
I accept that there are a lot of numpties who wouldn't dream of looking at their own lights from the front-let's face it a lot of folk have them either pointing up to the stars or down to the centre of the earth.I like the idea of stopping in the middle of the path when one approaches me and force them to slow down past me.
Super bright front lights are designed for off road mountain biking but do of course have their place on the road, particularly when some motorists refuse to dip full beam for cyclists.
Over bright flashing lights on shared-use paths are a damn nuisance - fine in traffic where they get you noticed better.Posted 12 years ago # -
Tried to keep count from Roseburn to Rodney Street tunnel of the cyclists I passed and the lighting arrangements.
Of 27, 2 had no lights (1 was Pilton riff raff on a BMX on the red bridge trying to get in the way on purpose) and 5 I would say had offensively bright lights, all of which were flashers and all of which were pointing up. The brightest, and worst mounted belonged to a lady with a very pink jacket on. Other offenders seemed to be road-bike types running MTB offroad lights on a flash setting.
There was one guy who had I think mounted 4 LED headtorches, or similar, to his bars, which would have been OTT, but he had them pointing down in such a way to illuminate a carpet of cold, white light about 2m ahead of him. He could probably see nothing peripherally though.
Posted 12 years ago # -
In my perfect world, I will find a light so bright it will melt steel if used carelessly, it will bolt onto the front rack*, it will have an on/off switch I can put on the handlebar (or certainly somewhere easily accessible whilst riding) and which has a reasonable battery life and costs less than around £150-£200.
Then I could use it for the unlit treacherous bits I ride, (and ignorant motorists) and switch off/dip when facing other cyclists.
*Of course that's impossible as the quick cheap and lazy option as adopted by 99.9% of manufacturers is to create a cheap barely adequate bracket to fit it to the bars along with the bell, horn, computer, brakes, gears etc, etc etc, good job we don't need space for our hands grrr (also no bl**dy use if you use a bar bag!)
Posted 12 years ago # -
The helmet mount that came with the Lumina 650 has a pleasant angle adjuster. I suspect that since it just uses the 'give' of the plastic that it couldn't withstand dipping several times a journey without wearing down too fast, but while it lasted it'd be ace on the handlebars.
I've used that mount to bodge my Smart 35 on with rubber band mounts liberated from yet another light. It has a very focused beam pattern that rivals the Lumina on 400 mode for brightness, albiet only in a patch which is, at ~3 metres away, about ten inches wide. I won't be falling victim to any medium sized pizzas lurking in the dark, let me tell you that.
The rest of the pattern is still bright enough for a see-me light but it is nice having the option to crane my neck a bit and have that spotlight on it.Posted 12 years ago # -
What about some sort of road style sign on bridges next to the shared path?
Posted 12 years ago # -
Thanks for all your comments. I think the main problem is that traditionally in Britain these days bikes are sold as basic without "optional extras" such as lights, mudguards, racks etc and the bike owner can then slap on a light wherever and whenever they want.It of course means the manufacturers can strip the cost of the bikes down accordingly. Our European friends especially in Germany and Holland are sold proper utility bikes with built in dynamo lighting , mudguards and so on.
Would a roadworthy car or motorbike be sold without regulation lights properly fitted? - of course not.Posted 12 years ago # -
100% agreement from me there Bigjack - I must have spent the value of the bike again in the first winter buying all the bits that prbably should have been included (and fitted!) for me.
Still, take solace in the fact that your thread has had an impact: cycling home last night on the NEPN just west of the five ways I got a 'Too Bright'. Looked down and noticed my Ixon IQ was on 40 rather than 10 lux. (To whomever it was let me know, I hope you heard my apology as we wizzed past each other, although I feel my explantion may have fallen on deaf ears by the time we were 500m apart...). Looked at it when I got home, and realised that the fancy trapezoidal beam pattern throws way more light eyewards than I thought - sheepish adjustments made, I prepare to eat some humble pie and stop proselytising about correct fitting!
Posted 12 years ago #
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