CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Commuting

Communication...

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  1. heez
    Member

    Hey guys/gals, I'm doing my final year at University and just have a couple of question to ask for my Design Dissertation.

    When commuting is there any sort of communication between fellow riders? Even other motorists?
    What topics of conversations are attempted?
    Bad roads? Bad driving? What you done at the weekend?
    Where is the communication held on the communicate? (Junction, bike path, etc)
    How do you communicate with each other?

    Do you think that communication makes a more interesting journey?
    Does it make safer?
    Can it make safer?

    If possible is there another way you would try to communicate with others? (Not telepathically, obv)

    I'm just looking to create a discussion within a commuting community to gain a good understanding of communication on a commute. I'll try and pipe in with some extra questions or answers if possible!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    There is a special acknowledging nod that touringy/audaxy/roadie-type cyclists give eachother when out in the middle of nowhere and they pass eachother. Sometimes a finger may be raised form the bars or on occassion a whole palm, to emphasise the friendly nature of the signal. Generally the warmth and strength of the signal is proportionate to the distance from civilisation you both are. It's a phsiycal expression of that non-commital and multipurpose English (Yorkshire?) greeting of "'Ow do"

    It acknowledges the other rider's presence and when they return your signal, it confirms that you are both now aware that eachother are in that special, secret club that doesn't exist on paper - only on the country lanes.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    there'sone chap who i often see going uphill(leamingston walk) when I am going downhill. I always smile and wave. I think it started when I mistook him for someone else!

    I'll sometimes try to start a wee chat at intersections - about the weather or traffic, but have been rebuffed so manytimes (or ignored by those with headphones on), that I've mostly given up.

    I'll also sometimes mention if a tyre looks flat, or compliment someone on a piece of kit.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  4. gembo
    Member

    I will talk to anyone. Yesterday a taxi driver advanced into the ASL BOX to my right but turned out he knew me and we had a chinwag at the lights. Inhave virtually given up correcting RLJ behaviour as so prevalent and only now do so if provoked. When the police did the crackdown on ASL box and RLJing that allowed conversations that people found helpful - eg lookout police going to start fining you sixty quid for that, but the police gave up that campaign for the next priority.

    If put on the open road you get acknowledgement from fellow cyclists but not always. Not sure if we are a more curmudgeonly cross section of society or just a cross section.

    Harder when at speed to have conversation that is not misconstrued.

    Car drivers can go mental if you pull them up, touch their cars. Some cyclists re the same. How dare you talk to me. S you need tompicknyour moment and also keep positive. Had good exchange with guy on motorbike about madness of motorists at gillespies crossroads the other night.

    Heez This forum loves a formal questionnaire, (answering it and deconstructing it) but you might get what you need around discussion or it might veer off into discussion about fieldmice nibbling tatties in the winter store and working out humane traps so we need to switch to neck breakers. Hard to say?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "discussion about fieldmice nibbling tatties in the winter store"

    Think that's meant to be in "Wildlife lowlight of the day".

    Posted 12 years ago #

  6. MeepMeep
    Member

    SRD: That's a real shame. I'm surprised at the rudeness you've encountered, but then again I suppose I'm not that surprised in town.

    I don't often talk to others at lights because I'm not often sat with anyone else now I'm based out at the Gyle. When I was working in the centre of town, I was cycling in and out most days with Mr MeepMeep so we'd have a good old gossip at each set of lights. Must have looked a right pair with matching bikes and similar jackets...

    Anyway, I digress. Kaputnik is spot on about the scale of middle-of-nowhere-syndrome cycling gestures. I made an effort over the summer to at least wave to those I saw when out on longer rides and tried to say "hello" wherever possible. I even spent a good ten miles cycling with a chap I'd never met before on one excursion; we spoke about le Tour, cycling with our respective partners and commuting.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  7. SRD
    Moderator

    @meepmeep Some cyclists react badly to someone on a funny (ie nonracing) bike. Especially if it has a childseat on it....

    Posted 12 years ago #

  8. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    There was an interesting way someone (I remember not who, nor where, it may have been here) put it to me once. If I'm walking to work, as I was today, I won't say hello or wave to every pedestrian I pass. I think this accords well with commuter cycling compared to the 'back of beyond' acknowledgement that kaputnik mentions - if I'm hillwalking or the like then I do say hello to anyone passing, and generally get a response.

    It was noticeable ealier in the year when I walked from Balerno to Leith along the Water of Leith that at the beginning of the walk everyone would respond. By the city there was a lot of shoe-gazing going on.

    You can't force people to communicate - generally I'll look about and if someone willingly makes eye contact then they may be amenable to a chat.

    That said, there's never an excuse for out and out rudeness (and there's definitely an element who see themselves as 'proper' cyclists (whatever that means) and so a folder or a bent or a tandem rider shouldn't really be speaking to them - despite the fact that rider probably knows more about cycling because they've made a very informed choice about stepping outside the 'norm' rather than slavishly following the 'rules' - I do of course say this as an exclusively upright, two-wheeled, only-weird-ish-things-are-my-moustache-bars cyclist, though the three-wheeled Noomad did actually seem to get me less eye contact than normal, whereas I thought it might spark ASL conversation on the unusualness, based primarily on the fact that I would definitely speak to someone about something like that).

    Thinking on it, even half the time I'm congratulating someone on the sweetness of their ride I'll get blanked. But like I say, you can't force people to be friendly, and as a cross-section of society not every cyclist is going to be as cheery and full of bonhomie as we are here.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    Conversation on NMW last night:

    Me: (slowing down and stopping with hand in front of eyes as bike approaches) "Please could you dip your light'

    Bike rider (no helmet, upright yellowish, moulton or brompton? coul;dn't really see as my eyes were dazzled): "It is dipped"

    Me: turning to shout after him "No it isn't"

    cue: muttering about cleverer things I should have said.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  10. cc
    Member

    @heez No I don't really communicate, other than muttering insults at people who selfishly block the bike lane and suchlike. Road conditions aren't remotely good enough for me to feel relaxed enough to chat to people. In more civilised places they deliberately build cycle paths which are wide enough for two people to ride side by side in comfort and safety, so they can have a conversation as they go. It's one of the things they do to make cycling more attractive.

    @SRD It's partly that it's traditional in Edinburgh not to talk to strangers much in public. Where my sister lives in Yorkshire people are far more outwardly friendly with strangers, to the extent that you can't walk down the road without saying hello to everyone you meet. But there is another side to the coin: here people accept folk from all over, whereas in that part of Yorkshire people are, deep down, quite clannish and will make sure that someone from another country always feels like a foreigner there.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  11. Dave
    Member

    Anth - sounds like something I might have said, because I was just gearing up to say that I don't wave at or break into conversation with strangers when walking about town / getting the bus / driving the car.

    The hill walking comparison is good because of course, in the hills we do have conversation (if going the same way, or at summits) and at least swap greetings with people we pass.

    The only time I would converse with someone on the road here would be if I knew them, I was expressing displeasure at them, or we were sharing displeasure at someone else's dangerous behaviour.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  12. heez
    Member

    Interesting. Noticed a trend where it's more nods with fellow bikers and the "proper" cyclists turning their noses up so to speak. Does this happen often you find? Or does it seem to happen the closer you guys get into Edinburgh?

    What about communication within the Road Infrastructure? Could you guys see this as a hindrance, or a safety aspect that could help? Maybe dot matrix signs with interactive info about bicycle specific info?

    Posted 12 years ago #

  13. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    Ooh, no more road clutter please!

    I'd settle for properly signed diversions if a road closure etc. is going to affect cycling as well as driving. When roads get closed that way there seems to be nothing thought of other than those in cars, where often bikes could have a much easier, better, quicker diversion.

    There's a dot matrix sign in Duddingston that I frankly don't see the point in.

    I don't think 'communication' from the infrastructure is a barrier, though one tweak I think would be useful, and has been mentioned quite often on here, is to change the cycling signs from distance, to 'time' (for an average pace) to get to places. Distance within a city is pretty irrelevant, time is a much better indicator (because it varies so little for cyclists) and while someone may think 'three miles?!?! I can't ride that far!' they're reaction to '20 minutes' would likely be somewhat different.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  14. amir
    Member

    "Noticed a trend where it's more nods with fellow bikers and the "proper" cyclists turning their noses up so to speak."

    TBH as a (slow) roadie and commuter, I am not sure that there really is great discrimination as to some folk acknowledge i.e. if they don't acknowedge one person, they won't acknowledge another.

    If anyone wants a wave, I am a frequent waver (and only mutter a little when I don't get a reply).

    Posted 12 years ago #

  15. fimm
    Member

    I quite often acknowledge cyclists, even commuters in the city, but more so outside of town - there are a couple of regulars on my "long commute" who I see quite often.

    I will also give a wave of thanks to drivers who have sat well back/waited patiently/passed with plenty of room. I expect to do this multiple times per journey, especially the long commute. I try not to make offensive gestures as a result of poor driving. However if I've been passed particularly closely, I will make a "pushing" gesture with my right hand. I'm sure it makes no difference whatsoever!

    (Driving home on the motorway yesterday, I had an idea. I would like a large illuminated sign in my rear window that I could turn on when required. It would say BACK OFF and would enable me to communicate with people who were driving too close to me.)

    Posted 12 years ago #

  16. Baldcyclist
    Member

    Ah Edinburgers, renowned for their friendliness ;)

    As a rule of thumb, the closer you get to town, the less 'mornin', or waves you will exchange. I always assumed the folk that do still converse in town, must be from out of town. <runs for the hills>

    Reminds me of a Jason Manford sketch, where he makes the same sort of comparison of 'Southerners'...
    Man sitting at bus stop, someone else sits next to him and says "Morning, bit nippy today eh". Man at bus stop looks as if he has just said "Morning, mind if I tickle your b***cks?".

    In fairness, I'm probably a bit reserved too when speaking to strangers.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  17. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    Waving and saying hello to strangers is just a country thing. Try it with the next country person you see tending their turnip patch or seeking out a new clettering stick. They're much more likely to wave than other cyclists but I wave anyway - it's my bl**dy-minded way of convincing myself that some things haven't changed since I was young.
    Riding in company it helps if someone has something funny to talk about. It does make the miles pass quicker. Examples: marketing Marshall's Pasta, knocking yourself unconscious during a time-trial, knocking yourself unconscious during an Audax, bricks, railways (preferably disused), badgers, witches and my personal favourite , farms with tall chimneys.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Car drivers can go mental if you pull them up, touch their cars. How dare you talk to me.

    This. Remember that the personal space of the driver of the car becomes the car plus a good metre or so of one's normal personal space. Touching someone's car is akin to the gleeful schoolboy who goes round pulling a girl's pigtails. The psychological reactions are probably not unrelated to the reason we have 'the war' between road users.

    Motorbikers though have long acknowledged each other in passing, with a nod that signifies the shared understanding of "it's us against them" and "stay safe, mate". Recumbent riders will also cheerfully acknowledge other deviant riders (tricycles, handcycles, and so on) for the shared enthusiasm for nonstandard transport, but won't necessarily feel the need to strike up conversation: that is more dependent on how open the individual is to casual acquaintance.

    Cyclists I see regularly on my commute I'll wave to, and they'll wave back. It's part distinctiveness and part friendly human reciprocation.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    Yes, agree with WC. I don't see why I should have to be everyone's best mate just because I am riding a bike. No one would expect it if I was walking or driving, so why cycling?

    Having said that I exchange smiles or hellos with other cyclists on the Innocent regularly. I am hardly going to do it in busy, stressful city streets where everyone is just trying to stay alive.

    If I find myself alongside another Surly at the traffic lights I will say hello to the fellow Surlyite. I'll sometimes make a comment to another cyclist if we are both walking over yet another cycle killing roadworks and have made an occasional apology at the next set of lights if I have misread another cyclists intention and ridden past them when I should have waited. I don't think I have ever been blanked by another cyclist on these occasions.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  20. wee folding bike
    Member

    What other cyclist?

    I do ding my bell at the visually impaired guy but that's because I once stopped to tell him he was waiting to cross the road at the wrong place. It turned out that he was in just the right place to catch a bus.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  21. cc
    Member

    Dot matrix signs for cyclists? Not really. Maybe once the roads had been massively redesigned and rebuilt from scratch so that it was actually possible to cycle on the cycle lanes. Until then you'd need a dot matrix sign about every couple of metres all along every road saying WARNING CYCLE LANE BLOCKED beside every parked car/van/lorry/bus.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  22. Dave
    Member

    Brilliant concept. We could repurpose a dozen or so "men at work" triangular signs to read "DANGER! CYCLE LANE BLOCKED!" and drop them in front of offending vehicles on the QBC before taking footage of people trying to ride past.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  23. Uberuce
    Member

    City rules and country rules for waving to people.

    That said, from time to time I will give praise to lovely vintage devices. So far I've only have one gitty response.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  24. deckard112
    Member

    When I first got the cycling bug I was pleasantly surprised by how social other people were when on two wheels. As others have commented on here I'll always nod/wave when passing other roadies when I'm on a longer ride (or any ride for that matter!).

    My favorite experience of this has to be when I was on a long distance charity ride organised by my work. A colleague of mine stopped at a red light ahead of me and leant on the shoulder of a random cyclist alongside him and started chatting away. I thought this was a really friendly approach until he conceded later that the only reason he did it was so he didnt have to unclip his shoes from the pedals at the lights!!...oh well!

    Posted 12 years ago #

  25. 559
    Member

    Postively,
    Nod to cyclists going the other direction, say thanks to Peds who have moved aside and dogs with the owners
    under control. Sometimes via a wave acknowledge a vehicle driver who has been particularly patient.

    Negatively,
    if it can be called communication, have conversations with drivers on the meaning of life (mine), advise oncoming cyclists that their light is a problem.
    Turn around glare at vehicles as Iam passing the West Approach Road Slip on Dundee Street

    Posted 12 years ago #

  26. paul.mag
    Member

    When commuting is there any sort of communication between fellow riders?
    When going in the opposite direction will nod or raise hand (in a friendly gesture)to another cyclist. Have twice ridden 2 abreast and chatted to different cyclists on the way home from city centre out to airport.

    Even other motorists?
    "you nearly hit me" or thumbs up gestures

    What topics of conversations are attempted?
    Bad roads? Bad driving? What you done at the weekend?
    Usually talk about routes and outdo each other on experiences with drivers/weather/bike repair at the side of the road

    Where is the communication held on the communicate? (Junction, bike path, etc)varies
    How do you communicate with each other? gestures (nods, raised hand), some spoken

    Do you think that communication makes a more interesting journey? Yes and if the other cyclist is a little faster it can improve your time
    Does it make safer? It can do, I rode 2 abreast up the A8 from gogar to the airport and the cars all pulled out to overtake instead of buzzing my right elbow as usual.

    As has been said the further you are from "civilisation" the more friendly everyone becomes, I will always thank someone who moves out of my way and say morning/evening to people I overtake. At junctions i'll make eye contact and nod to another cyclist (which usually gets blanked)
    Hope that helps

    Posted 12 years ago #

  27. HankChief
    Member

    I do quite a lot of communicating on my commute, that's one of the beauty of riding a tandem with a childseat.

    Some of it is pointing out what we can see, some nursery rhymes, some counting of lampposts.

    I may give a very slight nod to other cyclists. Wouldn't want to give too big a acknowlement in case they don't reciprocate.

    I tend to give a little wave of the hand if a vehicle has given a wide berth, or patiently waited for me.

    Posted 12 years ago #

  28. sallyhinch
    Member

    As a country cyclist, I wave hello to everyone, even cars. Cyclists get a big grin. Less so in town, although I'll say hello or thanks (if they've moved aside) to people I encounter on the shared-use paths. I once nearly flipped off a 4X4 that honked at me until I realised it was a neighbour saying hello.

    If I'm cycling in the same direction as a cyclist, I'll always greet them as they/I overtake. I once got into a bit of a leapfrogging situation with a fellow cyclist and we ended up cycling alongside and chatting rather than having to keep overtaking each other. One of the great joys of properly wide paths (or very empty country roads) is being able to talk and cycle at the same time.

    I'd not want to see Dot matrix signs, but more waymarking would be brilliant. I get lost very easily, so having proper directional signage would be one really easy thing that would make my life easier as a cyclist

    Posted 12 years ago #

  29. neddie
    Member

    If I signal right to pull into the middle of the road to turn right, and a car lets me out, my signal hand goes to a 'thumbs-up'.

    If a car passes too close (or other bad behaviour) I raise my right arm and shrug my shoulders.

    Other cyclists have stopped beside me at the lights and complimented my 'gash' bike which is 25 years old but was a high end model of the time. Others have asked about my cross bike.

    The other day a car pulled into a ASL and I looked at him and muttered some insults. The driver wound down his window to ask what the problem was and the conversation goes like this:

    Me: It's a 60 pound fine and 3 penalty points for stopping in the cycle box.
    Him: Who's gonna enforce it like.. you?.. the police...?

    Me: Not me no.
    Him: I don't care if you're police, we can all share the road anyhow.

    Me thinks to myself: I just implied I wasn't the police!

    Me: It's a matter of consideration, it makes it easier for us that's all.
    Me: Why don't you come out and join us [cycling], you might enjoy it.

    Him: Aye, ah already go to Glentress with me son and the like ya know.
    Me: Excellent!

    Lights change.

    Him (amicably): See ya then
    Me (amicably): See ya

    Posted 12 years ago #

  30. LivM
    Member

    I've been known to call out warnings of black ice ahead to cyclists going in the opposite direction (specifically after one particularly memorable transit through Five Ways on NEPN last winter), or glass ahead. I say thank you to dog walkers or pedestrians if they do some deliberate act to clear the path for me, and I quite often say specific thanks to dog walkers who have bright lights on the dog's collar. If a cyclist pauses or lets me through I'll say thanks or nod. I nod to a few cyclists on my regular commute that I recognise. I chat to the lollipop man at Great Junction St if the lights stop me at the right time. I swear quietly at bad drivers and I've called out "too close" or "too bright" to other cyclists if they've been particularly offensive. I sometimes get told off by friends for not spotting them (in pedestrian mode) when I'm cycling, but I really find that I rarely look at a pedestrian as anything more than risk/low risk when I'm on the road. And I shout "MOVE" at Youths who think it's funny to jump out in front of me or throw things at me (NEPN Pilton/Drylaw area...). One Youth shouted "Muslim" at me once (I was wearing a black buff that covered all but my eyes...) so I shouted back "No, Ninja" and was past.

    When on cycling holidays I'm much chattier. Going around the Hebrides a few years ago we kept bumping into the same people, usually at Ferry pinch-points. Same on Orkney.

    Posted 12 years ago #

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