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20 mph in South Edin - call Kaye tomorrow?

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  1. Uberuce
    Member

    Trivia time: your GPS is an ongoing experiment that verifies the General and Special Theories of Relativity.

    GPS satellites are constantly ticking, each tick being a time and position signal that has eight or nine decimal places of accuracy thanks to the atomic clocks they carry and the efforts of the US military in tracking all their satellites to within a few metres.

    This allows anyone that hears a tick to know exactly how far away they are from the clock. If you don't know anything else except that distance, then all you know is that you're somewhere on a sphere which has that distance for its radius, and that satellite for its centre.

    That's obviously not much help in determining where you are, since most of that sphere is in space and some of it will be under the Earth's crust. Even if your GPS ignores all the impossible points of the sphere*, it describes two honking great arcs across the surface. The exception to this is when the satellite is directly overhead, but that's like a stopped clock telling the right time twice a day.

    So, you need more than one sphere, ie more than one satellite, to work out where you are. The US military has now got 32 of them up there now, meaning at least 4 are in direct line of sight no matter where you are on Earth at any time.

    Your GPS device is a computer that works out the solution to the problem: where do I have to stand to be at the intersection of these spheres? That's always a unique solution, and due to the 8/9 decimal places of accuracy, it's an sphere 5-10 metres across.

    The reason I've told you all this is because you've already heard in this thread and from other places that Relativistic effects are far too tiny to be noticed in normal daily life, and that's why we still teach people the incomplete Newtonian equations. Well, GPS is the one normal daily thing that works to such a high degree of accuracy that the difference shows up.

    The velocity of the satellites means their time signals would rapidly come out of sync. That's Special Relativity - they're moving fast relative to us, so time moves more slowly for them.

    The other effect is that of General Relativity. They're higher up Earth's gravity well and so time moves more quickly for them. The effect of General is larger than that of Special, so overall, we're running slow. Or they're running fast. It really is the same thing.

    Oh, it's about ten kilometres/day's worth of inaccuracy.

    *which it can't, unless it already knew the exact and entire topography of the Earth to a 5-10 metre accuracy, and if you had a device with that information stored in it, you'd no longer need GPS anyway.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  2. Darkerside
    Member

    So many exciting things! Really accurate clocks, really weird science, really complicated maths that even basic phones can work out now, the Galileo GPS replacement.

    And the fact that the US could turn off GPS with a switch. Would make for a bizarre few days...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  3. neddie
    Member

    If you ran at 20mph, you would cover 1 mile in 3 minutes. Tuylar just invented the 3 minute mile ;)

    Posted 12 years ago #
  4. Arellcat
    Moderator

    I think Tulyar's stride length would probably make that possible. :>

    Do photons have zero mass? If light behaves both as a wave and as particles, and since light travels at the speed of light, must it also have zero kinetic energy? Or is it the propagation of 'light' that travels at the speed of light, rather than its constituent parts?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  5. DaveC
    Member

    Darn, Arellcat beat me to it...

    Posted 12 years ago #
  6. Uberuce
    Member

    Photons have zero intrinsic mass, but due to e=mc^2, they do have relativistic mass. In this case the equation's rejigged to m=e/(c^2) so it's a hilariously tiny amount of mass, but it is non-zero.

    I think that doesn't do anything except cause gravitation, and I can't see how it can do anything else since it still has no intrinsic mass but it's been over a dozen years since I did any physics.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  7. Dave
    Member

    What's the mechanism that makes the little windmill of gold leaf in a vacuum spin around?

    Something to do with light, evidently. Mass? Or is it a tricksome thing to do with heat?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  8. Darkerside
    Member

    Slight aside (if that's even possible, given where this thread started...) - there was a really neat example of how time runs slow if you go fast, that finally made it click in my mind.

    Say you have a plane that's 2 things long, flying through the air at 2.5 things per second. I want to fire a beam of light from the back of the plane to the front, and light travels at 10 things per second. Speed = distance/time. So time = distance/speed. Groovy.

    I'm sat on the plane. My light gun fires from the back of the plane and travels 2 things at 10 things per second until it hits the nose. This takes 2/10 seconds, so 0.2s.

    My handy relativistic friend called Uberuce is sat on the ground watching me fly past. The light gun fires, and the beam heads towards the nose at 10 things per sec. But Uberuce can see that the plane is also moving - the nose is running away from the beam of light. After 0.2 seconds the beam has again travelled 2 things, but the nose isn't there. The plane is travelling at 2.5 things per second, so in 0.2 seconds the nose has gone 0.2x2.5=0.5 things. The light can't go any faster - its already running at the universal speed limit. It simply has to travel for some more time before it reaches the front.

    Therefore exactly the same thing takes 2 seconds for me in my speeding plane, and 2-and-a-bit for the stationary Uberuce. My time is running slow, simply because I'm moving.

    The great thing is, this isn't just trickery with numbers - if yo undo this experiment you can measure the difference, and as mentioned above, GPS devices have to take it into account all the time.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  9. Uberuce
    Member

    Ach, the light sail effect. Dur. Yep, that's the relativistic mass of the photons being re-emitted during reflection.

    Easily confused with solar wind, due to the sail name. Solar wind is various types of charged particle flying from the Sun. They've got plain old clunky mass, so it's a bigger push than the momentum from the light.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  10. Yes, but is the cat in the box making a sound?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  11. Uberuce
    Member

    And is 'relativistic friend called Uberuce' just a polite way of saying my mass increased over Christmas?

    Posted 12 years ago #
  12. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    "Oh, it's about ten kilometres/day's worth of inaccuracy."

    Jaw, meet ground moment.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  13. Tulyar
    Member

    @edd1e_h made a serious assumption that it was a mile of running - sprinters probably peak at slightly more than 20mph but in running down lunch I reckon that my forebears were clocking close on that speed for sustained running (ie a bit more than an explosive sprint)

    Personally I'm rather chuffed to hear that the standard Kg seems to have shrunk.....

    Posted 12 years ago #
  14. Uberuce
    Member

    Jaw, meet ground moment.

    One more before bedtime. If you were accelerated to the same speed as the protons in the Large Hadron Collider were this year, you'd be in the region of three thousand times more massive than you are now.
    Next year they plan on doubling that.

    Posted 12 years ago #
  15. neddie
    Member

    20mph - Not only in South Edinburgh, but EU wide...

    Please sign the EU wide petition for 20mph as a default limit here: http://www.20mph4.eu

    Posted 12 years ago #

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