CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Dog Owners and Cycle Paths

(63 posts)
  • Started 13 years ago by Bagger
  • Latest reply from I were right about that saddle

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  1. Bagger
    Member

    Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I had an incident the other morning that I feel the need to share!

    I found a great new route to work by cycle path all the way from Victoria Park to Haymarket (normally I take a more direct route through town). Anyway I was pleased to see how many cyclist use it, and a lot of dog walkers use it as well.

    I was cycling along and I saw a good distance ahead a dog off its leash running around. I rang my bell and slowed right down. The dog owner failed to get the dog under control and I had to come to a stop to avoid hitting it. Being weak I mumbled, "for gods sake" under my breath, to which the dog owner responded "these paths are for everyone you know".

    Well. I explained to her that I had let her know I was coming by ringing my bell and that I slowed down, what else did she want me to do? Her response was "I tried".

    A few more words were exchanged along the lines of "you were going to fast" and "I really dont want to hurt your dog, its not its fault you cant control it".

    I know these paths are for everyone to use, but why cant dog owners be responsible and keep their animal on a leash if it cannot be controlled?

    Rant over.

    Just out of interest, what is the legal position in relation to vets bills/bike repairs etc if you hit a dog while on your bike?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  2. Kirst
    Member

    They can't make you pay if they can't catch you?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  3. steveo
    Member

    Dogs are an extension of property so if they break your bike the owner pays. But as you say a bit of give and take and slowing down is a more civil way of dealing with it.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  4. Stepdoh
    Member

    Winter is particular fun with our furry friends, particularly in the pitch black of silverknowes and even the leith path is pretty dark, lights on the collar is very handy to spot em.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    You want the Animals (Scotland) Act 1987 (which is similar in a lot of respects to the Animals Act 1971 which applies south of the border).

    Essentially there is a strict liability regime, so the 'keeper' of the animal is liable for injury or damage caused by an animal under his control - unless he can prove certain exceptions apply (one being that the injury or damage was wholly the fault of the person suffering it).

    In your case, having seen the animal from a distance, knowing it was not under control, and that the person who should have been controlling it was making no effort, you did the right thing. If you had carried on regardless there would have been, at the very least, a certain amount of contributory negligence on your part. This is not to say the owner is right in not controlling the animal, but in that specific case you could see the danger. The owner would still bear the brunt of liability though.

    However, the owner's comment of 'the paths are for eberyone' is enlightening, and damaging for the owner. That suggests they know the path is used by lots of other people, such as cyclists, and there will be instances when a cyclist does not see the dog ahead of time.

    In short, you did the right thing, and the dog owner was a nonce.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  6. spytfyre
    Member

    I am with you on this one, at Granton path I was approaching two women walking in the opposite direction to me (ie they could clearly see me) I saw sone dog running around and adjusted speed and approach to accommodate the wee white fluffy yappy thing when from behind them another wee black fluffy wee yappy thing I hadn't seen came barrelling round from behind them that I couldn't see.
    Now she yelled at me for going too fast when I had slowed to about 5mph, I mentioned that she could have used a lead, she yelled it was a pavement, I quietly said National Cycle Route, read the signs...
    Lazy dog walkers do not care about other people and do not want to have to keep their dog's on a lead as it is easier to let them roam free

    Posted 13 years ago #

  7. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I don't mind dogs running free if they're under control. I grew up with a border collie who walked everywhere off the lead. One word and he lay down where he was, or moved off the path. That's all it took.

    I still take care around dogs that look under control, and even those on a lead (after all it might be one of those deathtrap extending ones) because they're still animals after all who don't really know better (I'm talking about the dogs here, not the owners).

    Posted 13 years ago #

  8. cb
    Member

    I tend to slow right down even when passing well behaved dogs just in case. Tend to slow down quite a bit for humans too as you can never tell.

    Years ago on the D'Mains path I was flagged down by a slightly frantic young woman who told me her dog was injured and couldn't walk. Said dog was sitting by the path holding its sore paw off the ground.
    I agreed to carry the dog whilst the woman wheeled my bike. The dog was quite big and heavy and after 100m or so of staggering up the path I couldn't go on any further and stooped to put the dog down.
    At this point it leapt out of my arms and ran off, right as rain.
    Woman looked a bit sheepish.
    I looked a bit doggish, being covered in dog hair by this stage.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  9. Dave
    Member

    I find dog walkers very inconvenient, but in recognition of the fact that if I ever buy a dog I will suddenly find cyclists very inconvenient, I try not to let it bother me.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  10. recombodna
    Member

    I once hit a dog. It ran straight out of a hedge and under my wheels as I was tanking down a hill. I went straight over the handlebars and landed on my face slid down the road a bit on my ear and left arm.Had to get my ear sewn back on and get a large quantity of gravel removed from my elbow and hip. The dog had a small cut above it's eye.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  11. gembo
    Member

    dogs are random, one jumped in my neighbours garden and killed his cat, the owner said it was in his nature as he was a terrier. I always stop for them, you do not know what they will do - check dog knocking rider off bike in Tour de France on Youtube. Dogs go for swims, get into difficulty, owner goes in to save dog, owner drowns, dog swims out.

    Dog owners can be very reasonable if you show due care. Some are very anti all cyclists as they have had experiences with non-slowing down cyclists. Cycle paths are not race tracks, however tempting it can seem to bomb it there is always the possibility of a random dog/rat/child/granny/wee malkie meditating in middle of path at Muirhouse etc etc etc

    Posted 13 years ago #

  12. Dave
    Member

    It helps to understand that we are both competing for a limited resource.

    The presence of cyclists restricts a dog walker heavily, in terms of the amount of "care-free-ness" they can enjoy as well as any direct pleasure from the walking itself. While from a cyclist's perspective, dog walkers both consume direct space that we want to occupy but also throw in a truly random hazard (at least you can predict that drivers will go for you! ;-)

    Whenever "tribes" compete over limited resources it is never pretty.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  13. SRD
    Moderator

    Dog owners do not seem to understand how vulnerable one is on the canalpath on a bike, where dogs come bounding along and/or in and out of the grass on the side, quite unpredictably. Very foolishly, the first time I tried our daughter in the bike seat was on the tow-path, and I felt unbelievably unstable, and the out of control dogs terrified me. I was sure that I was going to topple straight into the water -- with 1.5 year old strapped into seat -- while the dog owners didn't seem to feel any need to even attempt to control their dogs. A really horrible experience.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  14. Min
    Member

    It is like everything else. I find most dog owners to be responsible and to catch their dogs as I go past (yes-I always make sure to say thank you) and then there are some who just let their dogs run about all over the place and then scream at you because you had to come to a stop from 3mph after one of their dogs ran in front of you anyway.

    My husband fell off his bike before Christmas when a dog jumped on him. He hurt his hand and was off the bike for a while. Of course the owner couldn't have cared less.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  15. Kirst
    Member

    The British Waterways by-laws say dogs should be kept on a short lead on the canal paths - I'm sure most dog walkers have no idea.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  16. Dave
    Member

    Don't they also say that you should cycle at no more than walking speed, however?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  17. chdot
    Admin

    "Don't they also say that you should cycle at no more than walking speed, however?"

    There are signs to that effect on parts of the Union Canal - don't know if they are in bylaws.

    And probably not enforceable (legally never mind practically) and probably being counterproductive/divisive.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  18. allyt
    Member

    I've often thought there must be a market for a lightweight telescopic 'polo' style club thingy, to be used for whacking small terriers into the long grass as one cycles by.

    The yelp from the dog as it sails into the distance, followed by the confused call of the owner could liven up every evening commute home.

    [I write this as a cycling dog owner, who gets equally annoyed with stressed out cyclists who won't let me enjoy my quiet walk along the green pathways of Edinburgh without giving me dirty looks when the dog is off the lead.]

    No easy resolution to this one me thinks...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    "cycling dog"

    Wow

    Pix please...

    "cyclists who won't let me enjoy my quiet walk along the green pathways of Edinburgh without giving me dirty looks"

    That's a shame. Probably (as evidenced above) concern is about the extent to which dogs are under any sort of control.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  20. spytfyre
    Member

    @allyt - can I preorder one of those polo mallets, I think the diminishing whine or yelp would make for a most satisfying ring tone...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  21. gembo
    Member

    on the polo mallet front - old fashioned pumps, e.g. like the ones still supplied on a Pashley had this exact secondary function.

    dogs are supposed to come to heel quickly if they are off the leash, if the cat killing terrier were to kill again it would be put to death, according to polis we consulted after neighbour's cat was killed.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  22. canaldrifter
    Member

    By ignoring unauthorised cycling on towpaths, and even taking money from SUSTRANS to improve them for this purpose British Waterways are breaking their own byelaws of 1965.

    Towing Paths
    Improper use of towing paths
    31. (1) No person, unless authorised by the Board or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall:
    (a) Ride or drive any animal or vehicle over any towing path
    (b) Obstruct any towing path or interfere with the authorised use thereof

    “vehicle” means anything on wheels, runners or articulated tracks (their definition)

    If they do authorise cyclists, then those cyclists are duty bound to have a free issue licence and to obey the Code of Conduct for Cyclists, which is being trialled there and which will probably be adopted nationwide, and which I quote below:

    Ring with Two Tings

    Use a bell, giving Two Tings when approaching pedestrians.

    Ringing with Two Tings is not an order to pedestrians to get out of your way.#

    Be aware that some pedestrians may have visual or hearing impairments and might not hear your Two Tings.

    Pass people slowly. Give people space Slow down when approaching pedestrians and only pass when it is safe to do so.

    Extra care should be taken when passing children, less able people and animals.

    Try to pass on the water side of the path. Pedestrians will tend to move to the back edge of the towpath to allow you to pass.

    Be patient and courteous to pedestrians. Saying “thank you” to pedestrians who move to let you pass will make them more likely to move next time.

    Ride at a sensible speed. The towpath is never suitable for cycling fast as there are many other users, low bridges and narrow sections. If you are in a hurry, use an alternative route.

    canaldrifter (Boater and occasional cycling lock wheeler)

    Posted 13 years ago #

  23. SRD
    Moderator

    Canaldrifter - I follow all those guidelines, but still have had a few bad encounters. How about an equivalent code for pedestrians and other users? here's a draft off the top of my head:

    * keep alert for cyclists and others coming behind and in front of you
    * be especially aware that children on bikes, and adults with child-carriers may feel unstable and need extra space, especially near the water's edge
    * listen for 'tings' (keep volume low on headphones)
    * keep animals under control - a cyclist or unstable pedestrian does not 'know' that your dog is 'a good dog' and even a well-trained dog may endanger a cyclist by darting out of long grass in front of them

    Posted 13 years ago #

  24. spytfyre
    Member

    I don't think I have seen a horse drawn canal barge in my lifetime. Time the byelaws were update much?
    Yes I too follow the proper guidelines, I even dismount on the aqueduct (partly due to having bad vertigo) but the sheer number of cyclists who don't tar us all with too thick a layer* for even politeness to crack through

    *really thick

    Posted 13 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "I even dismount on the aqueduct but the sheer number of cyclists who don't tar us all"

    That'll be me then.

    I DO cycle on the aqueduct because -

    a) I can - notice is advisory.

    b) it's fun - and quicker.

    BUT

    If there are people in front I hold back so as not to pressurise them at all.

    If there are people coming the other way I stop some distance ahead of them and lean on railings (stationary person on bike is easier to pass than person standing with/wheeling bike.

    "(partly due to having bad vertigo)"

    Mine is pretty mild - that viaduct not high enough to worry - though I am conscious that height of railings helps. Really don't like bridges with waist high parapets.

    Wouldn't it be better to ride across to get it over with quicker?

    Posted 13 years ago #

  26. spytfyre
    Member

    Wouldn't it be better to ride across to get it over with quicker?
    Obviously

    If there are people coming the other way I stop some distance ahead of them and lean on railings
    As did I

    stationary person on bike is easier to pass
    Goes without saying

    notice is advisory.
    That's not how pedestrians will view it

    That'll be me then.
    Grrr, next time someone tars me I am scraping it off and keeping it in a bucket for you (~;

    Posted 13 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    @spytfyre

    You seem to do what I do - except that you "dismount" when I just stop.

    I don't second guess what pedestrians think, I just wish BW would put up more realistic notices - like "cyclists should give way to pedestrians on aqueduct".

    Think even "must" instead of should would challenge the 'wrong sort' of cyclists.

    Posted 13 years ago #

  28. spytfyre
    Member

    You seem to do what I do
    No I dismount and walk the entire bridge, stop and step up on the wall when passed by pedestrian
    I used to do what you do until I read the signs and decided it was not advisory

    Posted 13 years ago #

  29. chdot
    Admin

    "I read the signs and decided it was not advisory"

    BW is a law unto itself, but...

    Posted 13 years ago #

  30. gembo
    Member

    The Aqueduct, now there is an interesting phenomenon. I go mostly with cycling over, sometimes in a funny technique whereby I propel myself by pressing foot on the stonework and pushing. I then stop and lean in to let pedestrians past (always giving the pedestrian precedence - some seem happier than others). If I am more than half way over I expect cyclist coming other way should stop for me - tricky as that isn't the way everyone else sees it. My other worry is falling in the water - seen that happen to a cyclist going a little too fast, only people going off the other way over the railings have done so on purpose. If windy I get off and push. Everyone has different ideas - the notice telling you to dismount is certainly one way - but if two cyclist meet and both are pushing, one has to lean in to let the other pass, who will break first? You can also lean out and put your bike over the water but what if you drop it?

    Posted 13 years ago #

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