"Of course they're allowed to do that"
Quite probably - like MMW,where cyclists are legally obliged to be on the cycle side.
But pedestrians can wander...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
WARNING - cones, bottom of Argyle Place
(272 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Indeed. Makes perfect sense - esp if with buggy - to remain on the Tarmac and not negotiate multiple (under oped) kerbs.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Were those "no right turn" signs there before?
(It is not a junction I use regularly except going straight on (or making a left turn to PY), but I walked down MMW to get to the bicycleworks this evening and I wondered about the signs. What are you supposed to do if you do want to turn right out of MMW?)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Aye - you were meant to go into that triangle thingy and then do a U turn down the feeder channel for left turning cars.
I remember looking for a mousehole to hide in when a driver that I yelled at pointed it out to me.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I went through the rebuilt junction officially for the first time this morning. Didn't have much time to stop and admire it as the lights were green - though it was pleasant, and a bit weird, to cycle through the whole junction on a smooth surface with no perma-potholes. (get to the point cc) After having got used to a tranquil traffic-calmed Argyle Place it was unnerving to cycle down a road which was once again open to cars and vans in both directions.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"After having got used to a tranquil traffic-calmed Argyle Place it was unnerving to cycle down a road which was once again open to cars and vans in both directions."
Indeed.
There have been various roads shut recently for days and weeks for a flurry of 'end of financial year road/pavement fixing activities'.
The world didn't end.
The businesses in Argyle Place presumably didn't go bust.
I'm sure people still caught the 41.
It's not about cycling.
And it shouldn't be about getting back to 'traffic as normal' as soon as possible.
No political will.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I froze solid this morning doing a traffic count on the new junction, between 7:30 and 8:45
Preliminary results are interesting. Anyone care to guess what the ratio is between cycling movements through the junction and left-turning cars out of Argyle Place?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'd be at a slight advantage having got a glance at your piece of paper this morning.
Can definitely say that observations about the near pointlessness of the raised bit for left-turning cars (from the point of view of pedestrian safety) seem correct, and there should have been traffic calming 'before' the new layout.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Good for you.
Presume you recorded right turns too.
I suspect there are similar numbers and probably more turning right.
BUT if there are a lot of 'rush' hour left turners then it will clearly be a rat run - with some no doubt coming past Sciennes school.
Posted 11 years ago # -
While I was there the right turning cars were very very very much in the minority (I was only there five minutes, but I think I saw only 2 right turning cars).
Really interesting to watch how cyclists and pedestrians interacted and used the space - would make a good time lapse with a camera mounted up high. Hmmm, might do that one morning if Dave wants it to go with a blog post (there will be one I presume?)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Thought: it's not a speedbump at all, is it, it's a raised section of road to create a step-free path for pedestrains. It's about as much use as a speedbump as all those ornamental herringbone-brick raised areas at the end of residential streets in "traffic calmed" areas (you know, the ones with the pavement build-outs with bollards on them to stop pavement parkers, which end up creating a cyclist-blocking bottleneck that prevents a left filter and turn).
Posted 11 years ago # -
To be fair cars 'were' slowing for the raised section (and you're right, it's a step-free pedestrian crossing really) - it's just that to get to that point they'd already passed one pedestrian crossing point and one cycle crossing point.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"would make a good time lapse with a camera mounted up high"
Good idea.
How high?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I tell you what would slow them down is speed trenches. Risk of bottoming out would bring vehicles to a crawl.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Good idea.
How high?"
Only needs to be 7 or 8 feet up a lamppost. Got a really good time lapse app on the phone. Just need to set up then stand with a coffee for an hour. Needs a nice moring like today, and not sure there are any of those left this week.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Tomorrow morning isn't too bad, according to wunderground in the 6-9am slot
Baltic, but clear...
Posted 11 years ago # -
In terms of what I recorded, I did:
cyclists (using the new layout)
cyclists (not using the new layout - i.e. straight on Melville Drive or Melville Drive - MMW and vice-versa)
vehicles turning leftThat was plenty as I had to physically count all these things!
However, I did have my headcam on a tripod the whole time, so I would be able to do further counts if needed (right turning traffic is actually far in the majority, overall).
Proportion of left turning vehicles which are commercial is extremely high, for instance. I'd need to watch 75 mins of footage to get an exact count though :(
Posted 11 years ago # -
Anyway, to put you out of your misery, there were 257 cycle movements through the junction and 87 left turning vehicles.
Allowing vehicle occupancy of 1.2 gives a total of 104 people.
The ped count will be the really interesting one.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"there were 257 cycle movements"
So that's in all directions presumably.
Will you be bothering to break that down later?
Seems a decent number!
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dave, I used the junction in a car this morning, a bit earlier than your survey.
To confirm, the crossing bump does slow a cars progress on to melville drive, but makes no difference to entrance speed to the junction. Indeed, as you enter the junction you are made aware that you are leaving the 20mph zone - almost encouraged to put the foot down!
Posted 11 years ago # -
I used the new junction for the first time on my way home today. Goodness me, that new dropped kerb off MMW onto Melville Drive is a joy to behold! When I next work in Leith I'll have a shot at turning left from Leamington Walk to MMW.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm off to Boroughmuir the night, so I'll try going down MMW, then crossing Melville Drive, and turning right on to the bike path.
Posted 11 years ago # -
as I came through, some idiot must have gone down the left angled lane and then tried to turn right onto melville drive. he was stopped perpendicularly across melville Drive as i went through, stopping cars both on melville Drive and on the Argyle place slip.
Posted 11 years ago # -
As I was waiting for the green light some numbskull stopped a car right in the middle of the junction (there was queueing traffic ahead of it on its road). When we got our green light all the bicycles squeezed past very close to the front of the car.
Posted 11 years ago # -
So no change there then, cc!
Posted 11 years ago # -
The redesigned junction is worth it for the new smooth surface alone. No need to take the turns at a slow crawl.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm broadly in favour. I think it's regrettable that the Council can't provide a signallised crossing (of Argyle Place) for Edinburgh's major park, and while I can only welcome physical speed control measures wherever they appear, it's doubly disappointing that the one implemented here doesn't protect the crossings (it's only covering one, with a side-benefit for through traffic on Melville Drive).
We took a huge step forward with the closure of Meadow Place, but with this hazard untreated, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable letting kids go on their own (who can say? Anyone with appropriately-aged kids want to weigh in on the safety of that left-turning slip road?)
I suppose what we can say is this: it doesn't preclude inclusive cycling, unlike the QBC which by design requires a police escort for children to ride to school (photos in another topic!).
This is because, however hazardous it may be to cross a road, at least a perpendicular crossing is fairly easy to manage - unlike riding in heavy traffic trying to negotiate islands and illegally (or legally!) parked vehicles.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I'm broadly in favour"
But then you list all the things that could be better.
k has said the surface is much better.
SRD thinks pedestrians might be worse off, I'm not sure.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Speaking as the token parent (other parents are available), I'd be very cautious about letting my guys cycle there on their own.
Northbound requires a majorly primary position for what amounts to a left turn, and right turning drivers are going to completely lack understanding of why they're in the middle of the road for turning left.
Southbound's not much better, requiring a right turn across a stream of traffic that's just been given a green light.
To/from the Links are much more likely routes, but that still requires crossing the slip road which has been engineered to not require much in terms of braking before the crossing.
So, no, give that we use it North/South, I'm not sending the kids unaccompanied (not that they could get to the area unaccompanied anyway!).
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
@SRD some idiot must have gone down the left angled lane and then tried to turn right onto melville drive.
Is there no end to the inventiveness of drivers... expect we'll still have some heading up the slip the wrong way too. I also still see cars running the crossing on red so this hasn't been addressed.
@Roibeard - exactly right. Surface is better but needs care to use.
@Dave - your stats on this junction were very interesting (pity the council didn't survey it first - think they could have put sensors down to find out numbers before spending money). During the closure week I'd imagine the numbers using bikes would still have been high despite the obstacles.
Posted 11 years ago #
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