There is now a further response to Cllr Burns' email here: http://greenerleith.org.uk/blog/leith-walk-council-leader-responds-to-consultation-criticism-2607
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk: revised plans
(333 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Sadly I think that I'll see Hibs win the cup before CEC resurface Leith Walk.
And I think that the idea of a bike lane inside of parked cars is amongst the most stupid I have ever heard. How wide? How clean? How open to doors from the SMIDSY community?
Posted 11 years ago # -
A bike lane outside of parked cars is worse.
The bike lane inside parked cars would be fine as long as there was a barrier or enough space between cars (and their doors) and the bike lane. And as long as junctions were designed properly.
For Edinburgh these are big 'if's though :-/
Posted 11 years ago # -
If I'm going to be in the door zone, I'd rather it be on the passenger side because it's (a) less likely that door will open, given most cars have only one occupant and (b) as long as the track has a sloping kerb or is level with the pavement, then the 'escape lane' is onto the pavement rather than out into an oncoming truck.
Sweeping is an issue, but not beyond the wit of man to sort out. There is a slight knock-on effect for those trying to get in and out of their parked cars, loading kids and shopping etc, but if there's enough space to have a gap so people can get in and out then it should be fine.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Can someone find a photo of how the Dutch do it? Basically there's the road, then the place for parking the car, then a space for opening the door into (which might have plants or trees in it at intervals so that it is clear that it isn't a place for going anywhere in), then a nice wide place to cycle, then a place to walk.
I was very sceptical when I heard about this the first time, but if you see a photo it does make more sense.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The Edinburgh solution will involve a metre wide gutter, possibly painted red. Which part of the roadway will be reduced? And by how much?
Waste of money. Resurface the buslanes now (or make those who have put in the poor quality patches do them properly). In tandem with that, tow and fine all double parkers, double fines if they park in the bus lane outside of a parking space.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Not the Netherlands, but there are photos of car parking between cycle path and the road from Copenhagen in this blog post by Vole O'Speed here.
It's a long post but well worth a read. Includes the classic response to the complaint that British roads are too narrow for segregated cycle infrastructure: "The lack of space is in your heads".
Posted 11 years ago # -
Here's a Dutch one http://ecolocalizer.com/2011/01/31/dutch-improving-cycle-networks-building-fast-cycle-lanes/
Here's an American implementation http://cyclelondoncity.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/chicago-joins-london-and-promises-to.html
And here's what they're planning in Manchester http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j7jTT3bjZJ0
Posted 11 years ago # -
Hallelujah, they've realised in Manchester that it's a good idea to separate bus stops and cycle lanes! Well done them. Clearly they're way ahead of Edinburgh transport planners. Perhaps this separation will happen in Edinburgh before I die of old age, or of being squashed by a bus.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The great advantage of cycle lanes inside parked cars is that there's a chance people may actually use them, firstly because it guarantees they won't get run down but also because (generally, I hope) the first people to park will use the parking bays, blocking double parkers from the cycle lane.
This way you don't get another Quality Bike Corridor, where there can be thirty or forty cars you have to pull into traffic around, just trying to get your kids to the library.
There's little point asking existing cyclists what they prefer, as the tiny proportion of people who are already happy to cycle will generally prefer something looking like the status quo.
It's natural enough that cycling lobby groups are populated mainly (!) by cyclists, but not a great way to drive the kind of change needed for non-cyclists to join up in significant numbers.
Present company all excepted, etc.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Melville Drive had cars parked in the cycle lane yesterday afternoon, for quite long stretches I had to pull out into busy traffic, with my son stoking.
I would worry that any cycle lane that is not segragated from parked cars by at least a bit of kerb will just be abused by the de'il may care parkers of Leith Walk. I mean, the kind of drivers who double park, park on the pavement, and on double yellows at junctions are not going to bat an eyelid before squatting the cycle lane, are they?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I think the chicago-style plastic bollards should keep all but the most reckless parkers out of the cycle lane. Something that could be very very easily trialled on a temporary basis with a bit of paint and some plastic sticks as long as you were taking space from the carriageway and not from the foot path.
Hmmm... wasn't someone on here going to experiment with a bit of guerilla cycle-track creation?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Also, the bottom line is that the first people to park will have a choice between a legal bay (no risk of a ticket) and the cycle lane (iffy - especially as the next guy to park legally in the bays will block you in entirely). Why would they not park in the bay?
Needless to say, once the bays are all full, I think it's unlikely people will double park by driving back to the nearest junction, mounting the kerb then driving along on the inside of the row of parked cars.
I'm sure it *will* happen, but really expect it to be largely self-enforcing.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Dear StakeholdersTHE LEITH PROGRAMME - email update 21, 7 June 2013
Draft enhanced designs
Following last night's meeting with community representatives where a set of draft enhanced designs for the Picardy Place/Leith Walk corridor were considered, as agreed, the draft designs are now online and can be accessed directly here or by using the link below:
http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements
Please note that you can zoom in and out of the drafts, which are subject to further development, using the buttons at the top of the download.
You can also link to the corresponding news story here.
Regards
Alan"
Posted 11 years ago # -
can be accessed directly here
A two-way bike lane runs down the hill as far as Annandale St. It's hard to see what happens after there for those cyclists, but it looks like one has to cross the road into a sort of extended ASL zone.
But that switchover is likely for any two-way system; somewhere along the line one half has to cross the prevailing traffic flow. It is of course sensible to have the against-flow bike lane nearest the against-flow traffic lane so that lane weaving in the bike lane is minimised.
Posted 11 years ago # -
From one of the links above:
An enhanced design for Leith Walk as part of the Leith Programme has been given the seal of approval by local residents and organisations.Following a comprehensive public consultation earlier this year, the Council announced it would be seeking additional funding from the Scottish Government in order to give Leith Walk the best possible revamp.
At a meeting in Leith's McDonald Road Library last night [6 June 2013], an enhanced design, which would make the thoroughfare more cycle and pedestrian-friendly, was presented by the Leith Programme team to local residents, business leaders and community groups.
Features of the enhanced scheme include:
- clear pedestrian priority over 1.8km, including safer crossing points;
- significant sections of uninterrupted cycle space (both dedicated on and off road sections);
- redesigned, simplified junctions;
- largely segregated cycle provision from Pilrig Street uphill for around 1km to Picardy Place;
- two-way segregated cycle provision from Annandale Street to the Omni centre;
- replacement of London Rd roundabout with a signalled junction to significantly enhance conditions for both pedestrians and cyclists;
- 1.75m wide cycle lane provision on the road in both directions between Foot of the Walk and Dalmeny Street (into town) Pilrig Street (out of town);
- Narrower road environment with frequent zebra crossings, with a design that supports slower vehicle speeds;
- a simplified streetscape more conducive to community activity, trading and business; and
- better connectivity for sustainable forms of travel between the waterfront and the city centre.
The plans are Proper Architects Pictures and I can't read them (well I don't know what the colours mean...)
Posted 11 years ago # -
it's a bit of an oversite not to include a key to the plans!
The PDFing has converted text to line, and the line width is obscuring what the words actually say.
I'd say yellow = relaid paving flags
pink = red chip tarmac
green lines = white road lines
orange = bus stops
blue square = binsAside from the off-road lane from above Pilrig Road, one of the main "victories" over the initial plans seems to be the removal of the central reservation, which the man at the initial exhibition at Macdonald Road Library from the Roads Department was fighting a losing battle in trying to defend as sacred ground that couldn't be gotten rid of under any circumstances.
A paper inspection would suggest it's a massive improvement over the original consultation, and the "cyclist blender" on the roundabouts is back where it belongs, in the bin.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yeah there seems to a problem with the PDF. Maybe not really a PDF?
Think 'we' (not just CCEers) can claim a significant success for all the 'inspecting plans', commenting, lobbying etc.
CEC is going to find it hard to go back to 'not good enough' because (IF) they 'couldn't get the money'.
Still think a lot of this can be trialled with temporary, movable, structures to see how well it all works - and allow for low-cost tweaking.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Have to say it looks pretty good, especially compared to what exists just now. I hope match funding comes through...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Oh dear. The people who "designed" this need to go to NL and see how it's done, because if this is CEC's idea of a "cycle and pedestrian-friendly" street then we are doomed.
The new London Road T-junction is to have staggered multi-stage pedestrian crossings. This is barbaric and unacceptable in a civilised city.
The two-way cycle track is bizarre - how are you supposed to get in and out of it? Why do they think the one-way cycle track is only needed in the uphill direction? Why does the cycle track give way to side roads? Why do extremely short stretches of bus lane interrupt what would otherwise be continuous cycle lanes? Why are the cycle lanes in the door zone?
This scheme has the grubby fingerprints of incompetent King Car traffic engineers all over it and I am appalled to see Sustrans backing it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"This is barbaric and unacceptable in a civilised city"
Interesting turn of phrase!
Apart from traffic engineers, we are in the world of 'real' politics.
It's not long since most if this was 'impossible' and 'stop wasting your time campaigning for this, it's been decided. The City Centre is more important'.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yeah, I suppose the fact that there are cycle tracks at all shows that the campaigning message is starting to get through and it will certainly be nicer to have a T-junction instead of a roundabout. So I guess it does represent *some* progress.
Perhaps "barbaric" might sound a little extreme - but we know the dangers of "dooring". I cannot stand the fact that it's viewed as an acceptable compromise to have a design that is actively dangerous to us. It shows complete disregard for the wellbeing of all the people they're trying to "encourage" out onto bikes who will naturally "trust" the infrastructure that is provided. It would be better to have no cycle lane than a bad one.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The presence of the cycle-lane-in-dooring-zone thing was something I specifically pointed out as not being a brilliant idea in my consultation feedback, citing the examples of Bruntsfield Place southbound and the QBC, which is why it was irritating that I couldn't see my responses amongst the collected consultation feedback.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well, if it is going out to consultation again, people can respond that they won't use cycle lanes in door zones...
Is it going out to consultation?
Is this where you get to the "this is better than what we did have so don't complain even though it is far from perfect" vs "it isn't good enough" moment?Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Cllr. Andrew D Burns (@AndrewDBurns)
07/06/2013 16:03
@scotbot @CyclingEdin @SustransScothttp://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/1239/enhanced_design_for_leith_walk_wins_local_support
"drop in session 2b held @ McDonald Rd Library, Tues 23 July, 2-8pm" - please go?
"
Posted 11 years ago # -
So, Northbound it's completely unchanged, except that the London Road roundabout becomes a T-Junction.
Southbound is unchanged as far as Pilrig Street, then it looks like a fantastic segregated cycle path away from the door zone and buses.
Is that right?
Posted 11 years ago # -
The new London Road T-junction is to have staggered multi-stage pedestrian crossings.
These seem to be the new standard and are cropping up all over. Trams project seems particularly keen on them and have developed their own style with a very long and narrow central reservoir. They are also trying to route bicycles through them as a "shared" space(!). The one at South Gyle Access replaces what was previously a single-stage crossing. It's a highly retrograde step.
I suppose they think that 2 short crossing phases is preferable as it "inconveniences" motorists less than 1 long phase?
Or maybe in their experience people can't cross more than 2 lanes of traffic before needing to stop for a breather?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Perhaps I'm missing something here - a fully segregated path, separated from traffic by cars for half of the southbound length of Leith walk - why do we not seem more happy about this? Is this not an example of good design?
OK, it would have been nice to have segregated paths on both sides, but considering where the plans were a few months ago, this is a fantastic advance! Look at the roundabout for goodness sake!
Remember that with enough water behind it, a drip will eventually become a flood...
Posted 11 years ago #
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