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CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Leith Walk: revised plans
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Posted 10 years ago #
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Views of Peter Hawkins (long time Spokes activist).
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Overall, the new designs are a big improvement for cyclists. Cycle lanes of one sort or another another are provided on both sides; there is continuity in the provision, and the lanes look direct and straightforward. The bike lanes run right up to the crossing points to give greater continuity. Sometimes they run 'outside' the bus lane.
The London Rd roundabout is to be signalised, with a continuous cycle lane across London Rd., tied in with a ped crossing which could be a toucan. For cyclists coming from London Rd into LW there is a filter lane.
From London Rd to Picardy Place there will be a cycle lane northbound; southbound will have a segregated 2-way cycle lane, the idea being that cyclists coming from the Omni bike park could ride to London Rd and turn into it without crossing the main road twice. For those wishing to cross it to proceed down LW, there are 2 crossing points, one at the Playhouse, the other at Elm Row.
At Elm Row, this route will hug the railings and thus be 'inside' the bus stops.
The segregated cycle path extends down to Pilrig St and will be 'inside' a parking lane, which is to be 3m wide, so we suggested hatching be marked in this, against the kerb which segregates the cyclists, to encourage vehicles to park close to the outside and thus avoid 'dooring'.
There are many extra crossing points of LW, which will hopefully reduce traffic speeds.
At the Albert St crossing, the segregated bike-way will be at raised height and will be coloured, and is set back from the mouth of the junction. Cyclists will be advised to give way, but we have asked for the path to be delineated with white lines so that vehicles will also be encouraged to give way. We also asked for the coloured surface to be bright red, not the usual chips.
Minor points: we asked for continuity of lane at a couple of places where it isn't, one at Gayfield Place n'bound, the other at Haddington Pl., just south of MacDonald Rd, northbound.
No specification has been shown for Foot of the Walk, as if they haven't yet made up their minds. The revisions sought by GL will probably benefit peds rather than cyclists.
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Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm rather confused.
Lots of well-reasoned arguments and views here that what was unveiled on Tuesday was a load of junk, but also views of Spokes above that it's much better than it was.
Without being able to attend on Tuesday it makes it very hard to form a reasoned argument in a written response to council.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Certainly the SPOKES view there is that this is more than just an improvement, but rather excellent.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I think many of us have far higher expectations than Spokes... Much as I like them, and they do a great job, they seem willing to accept on-road cycling provision, whereas many of us are now expecting segregated provision.
Posted 10 years ago # -
So it might be fair to say that SPOKES opinion is "it's good as far as Edinburgh is concerned" and other's opinions are that "it's rubbish as far as Amsterdam (or similar European Metropolis) is concerned"?
Posted 10 years ago # -
If built as currently designed, it will be best cycling infrastructure Edinburgh has on/beside a road. It won't be as good as Middle Meadow Walk though.
There is the space to make Leith Walk better (perhaps even as good as MMW for some stretches), so there remains untapped potential.
Robert
Posted 10 years ago # -
Spokes seem to be considering things from the POV of a confident cyclist whose brain contains an accurate up-to-date map of the various lanes and physical geography of the streets they're heading along. On Tuesday I was trying to explain what might happen if someone was attempting to use the planned design without the benefit of a top-down map-view whilst going slowly and wobblily and remaining a fixed and short distance from the kerb, whereupon the current drafts feature several unpleasantnesses.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Where are these damn plans?
How do the council expect to hold a meaningful consultation when they don't publish the key information?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@Dave - on the wall of Macdonald Road Library earlier in the week...
GreenerLeith have already given them a row for not making them available electronically.
Robert
Posted 10 years ago # -
Wingpig has nailed this. I didn't seen anything in the revised plans that would lead me to believe that a parent would want their 10 year old child to cycle the length of Leith Walk. New / lacking in confidence cyclists wouldn't buy it either.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"I'm rather confused"
I think everyone is really.
So much has changed since last year when CEC thought it was consulting on the 'almost final' version.
A lot has changed in the last few months - not least the removal of the London Road roundabout.
'Impossible', 'traffic flow you know'...
Peter Hawkins' views are his own, though they will probably inform any future Spokes comments.
There are clearly people who want nothing but segregated facilities the whole length, others are less bothered.
CEC is not a monolith with a single view. There are quite a few CEC officials working on this, who come from different backgrounds and have different professional interests - so they discuss, negotiate etc.
But they don't work in a bubble. They talk to (and listen to) traders, residents, 'interest groups', individuals (like 'us'!) - oh and politicians.
It's perhaps a bit too late to go back to see what the original brief was - and how much it needs modifying.
Also new since last year is that Leslie Hinds is taking an interest and is keen to see things improved for pedestrians and cyclists.
One thing that needs to be sorted is the (vague) proposals of 20mph.
There is no point in doing all this work (with or without perfect cycle infrastructure) if it just creates a smoothly surfaced high speed traffic route.
The original plan for resurfacing has been delayed. At present the idea is to resurface the lower part of LW first - complete with quite a few Zebras.
It might be better to get that right on the ground before finalising all the details for the rest.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Let's be clear. The current draft plans *are* an improvement on the plans presented last November. 'We' can all see where the design could be *much* better of course. Alas it seems a full Danish/Dutch style segragated lane all the way down to the Foot of the Walk is not on offer. So the question for me is how can we make the draft design better than it is at the moment?
Principle plus points in the draft design:
- London Road roundabout gone.
- Properly segregated path from Montgomery Street to Picardy Place.
- Path segregated behind parking bays from Pilrig Street to Montgomery Street.
- Improved pedestrian crossings at London Road, Pilrig Street and several zebras further north.
- Improved/straightened out QBC style door zone lanes 'twixt Foot of Walk and Pilrig Street.
- Widened bus lanes allowing more room for cyclists.
- Better provision for pedestrians.However, further to those raised by Spokes, there are a number of issues that could be easily changed:
- Segregated lane appears to be one way only north of London Road.
- London Road pedestrian crossings are staggered.
- Segregated path north of Montgomery Street risks conflict with parked cars' passenger doors and bus stops.The first two merely require the street design team to place less priority on traffic flow at the London Road junction. The proposed left hand traffic filter lane going south could be removed; The pedestrian crossings could be made single stage. all on red at the same time. I would imagine no significant cost implications, indeed it could save money as all the central pedestrian refuges with railings would not need to be constructed. The last issue would need to cycle path moved further into the pavement, encroaching further on pedestrian space and requiring some street furniture/bus shelters to be moved. It's possible this cannot be done in the budget allocated.
"Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable - the art of the next best" - Otto von Bismarck
"Be realistic, demand the impossible." - Situationist International
Posted 10 years ago # -
I'm still with the Situationists on this.
Me, I've been cycling since long before there was any infrastructure, and I'll probably keep doing it until someone doors me into an HGV. But I would love for my friends and family to be able to cycle (and loads of them want to!).
And that needs segregated paths.
Posted 10 years ago # -
As it stands, if the design shown on Moday were implemented tomorrow, then for me personally I can see benefits.
My 8 year old son would be able to:
- cycle to the Omni centre cinema without having to avoid pedestrians on the busy pavement between London Road and Picardy Place.
- return from the pictures to go home (via London Road gardens path).
- cycle from McDonald Road library/Vittoria's to John Lewis, only having to dismount/transfer to pavement at Leith Street.
- possibly even cycle from Pilrig (one way) to John Lewis, returning via the pavement on most of the downhill however.I'd also be able to make those journeys without worrying about being 'clipped' or 'squeezed' by motor vehicles on the uphill section. I'd also be able to negotiate the downhill in an on-road bus/cycle lane without an extra roundabout and without the terrible junctions currently at Elm Row/Pilrig Street. So a trip to LiDL or Tesco in Leith will be less of a stress.
That's quite a lot of gains from the current 'take your chances' roulette. Am I too easily satisfied? Perhaps. It could be full segragation all the way, but it seems there is resistance to this, not just from designers/officials I suspect.
Posted 10 years ago # -
So I could write a letter in support of proposals for segregated bits that they've "got right" and encourage that this sort of thing is extended further if we want to really improve Leith Walk for all and make it aplace where people want to go/ not just go through? Congratulate them for heading in the right way and encourage them to keep going.
I don't fell in a position to be able to comment very objectively on the latest proposals as I just haven't seen them.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Congratulate them for heading in the right way and encourage them to keep going
the tried and trusted SPOKES method.
but does it work?
they respond to being shamed, but when congratulated -- "the job's a good 'un, and that's a rap, everyone"..
"perfect is the enemy of good enough" - typical UK middle manager
Posted 10 years ago # -
Right... So not to congratulatory then! But strongly urge that the segregation be extended across the full length it is.
Posted 10 years ago # -
now up on http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/leithimprovements
haven't time to look at present (busy writing a
rantthoughtful piece about Sustrans) but then on it.Posted 10 years ago # -
At the meeting I was told something along the lines of 'The drawings haven't been online so we can present the newest ones today, they're changing daily'
Title of the download: 'Leith Walk draft design 1 to 4 July 2013'
Drawing date per the information box: 'June 2013'
/sigh
Posted 10 years ago # -
Thought I'd take a look at LW today.
Found some 'experimental' infrastructure -
Maybe they should try similar all the way up to see if it works according to the 'plans'...
Posted 10 years ago # -
I count five full vehicle widths at the so called 'narrow' part
edit: I guess this is subdivided in the proposals as
2x General traffic
2x Parking
2x Door zone half lanePosted 10 years ago # -
Of course this is what all traffic people and politicians should watch every week -
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wingpig Spokes seem to be considering things from the POV of a confident cyclist
No, not just that! Rather, from the POV of what seems politically achievable to benefit as many types of cyclist or potential cyclist as possible. Undoubtedly fully segregated would get more in LW, but not now achievable in LW. But even the non-physically seg facilities are an improvement and do encourage some new cyclists. e.g. see survey/quotes on p3 of Spokes 93. The level of cycle use has risen greatly in Edinburgh in last 10-15 years whilst static in most of UK, so Edinburgh is succeeding, even though not as fast as we would like.@crowriver - agree with nearly all you say.
@o-O The tried and trusted SPOKES method. but does it work? They (the cooncil!) respond to being shamed, but when congratulated -- "the job's a good 'un, and that's a rap, everyone"..
Many people say this, but evidence for it is weak - you can find loads of examples to support either csse. They certainly don't always respond to either praise or criticism, but in the long term they seem to respond best to praise (given only where it is due) accompanied by constructive criticism and lobbying to go further. This is why councillors have had the confidence to gradually raise the cycling budget and cycle staffing, because they get sufficient feedback to feel their efforts are appreciated (in a reasonably objective way).
Lobbying also has to be seen in the long term, not just in terms of one particular project. e.g. virtually all agree that NMW is a great project, but it would not have happened (certinly not this year) had the council not had the cycling budget and staffing flexibility to apply quickly for match funding when it became available from the govt to be spent at short notice. And the budget and staffing are only high in Edinburgh for the reasons above.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"but not now achievable in LW"
Says who?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Did anyone get the chance to discuss why dutch junction design is not implemented in Leith Walk? My response to the consultation is getting over 2000 words!
Another way to improve Leith Walk is by blocking some side roads to cars. I thought Montgomery St, Brunswick St and Arthur St could be filtered permeability. Any other side roads worth blocking?
Posted 10 years ago # -
There was an interesting moment during the time I was at the consultation on Monday. It was the only time I saw one of the designers getting irritated and snap a little at a consultee. Someone was pressing him on the quality or otherwise of the cycle lanes, I forget who or which section of the Walk, but the designer through gritted teeth said "This not just a cycling project."
This highlights a problem. 'We' may be pushing for a mini-Copenhagen on Leith Walk and see the logic and benefits of this approach. It's clear that vision is not shared by the design team, or if it is, not seen as feasible nor politically acceptable to others (ie. non-cyclists). Cyclists as a group may be vocal and organised on this issue, but I sense officials will only be pushed so far. Perhaps they fear a backlash from motorists, bus users and/or pedestrians after any changes are introduced which seem too 'radical' ie. are perceived to penalise drivers/bus users/pedestrians "too much"?
Posted 10 years ago # -
"but not now achievable in LW"
Not politically achievable. [obviously it is physically achievable if given the political will to reduce car parking etc]
If anyone thinks the council could now be persuaded to totally change to a fully segregated solution I'd like to know how. Wishing or complaining definitely won't work!
If Greener Leith, Spokes, etc, etc, all said 'segregated or nothing' then we would at best get the current plans as they are; or quite possibly there would be further reverses, given that there has already been the recent Elm Row reverse and possible Foot of Walk reverse. Much better to lobby for these and for other improvements to the current plans.
Even if we'd all said 'segregated or nothing' at the outset, we'd not have got it - in fact that case was pressed very hard at the very first and rather heated 'stakeholder' mtg over a year ago with GL, spokes and others present.
Nevertheless the widespread ongoing pressure has improved their initial ideas significantly as per @crowriver and @chdot comments above. Incidentally we also have Sustrans to thank to some extent, as it was only because they proactively came up with the possibility of additional funding that the Council was willing to consider any substantial changes at all.
Reminds me - did anyone ask about funding? The Sustrans money has always sounded to be on an 'if' basis (including I suspect Sustrans will have to get the nod from Scot Gov, or may have done already, since it is bascially govt money). So, not clear if the funding is 100% definite, and without it or some other funding the London Rd rbt removal won't happen. The council has always referred to the funding uncertainty in the past, but was it mentioned in this consultation??
Posted 10 years ago # -
It was mentioned that meetings were happening with Scottish government re: funding. I asked how that was going. The reply was essentially "we don't know", and that it is basically a political process. However the design team seemed hopeful.
The remodelling of the street will go forward in two phases: the section north of Pilrig Street will happen first (in 2014?) and the section south of that later, though it was suggested that as far as possible they would aim to complete blocks of work from major junctions onwards (eg. Picardy/Greenside to London Road; Foot of Walk; etc.) so that segregated facilities can be used as soon as they are completed.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Meanwhile in Munich...
http://instagram.com/p/cOJa_6Ct_a/#
http://instagram.com/p/cOJmpuit_i/#These look so much like Leith Walk could look.
Both spotted on https://twitter.com/copenhagenizePosted 10 years ago #
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