CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 14years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
Speaking for myself, I'm just stubborn, and pathologically hate being bullied.
Possibly regular cyclists are actually more skittish than the general population, judging by the fact that "we" get annoyed/frightened when the driver finds our reaction incomprehensible...
Robert
Although both I and my better half commute and generally get around by bike, I can't imagine that continuing if we were to have kids. The infrastructure just isn't there, and no amount of soft selling drivers to please be nicer will ever make me happy putting the life of offspring in their hands.
Which is a shame, because I've been hankering after the Helios tandem for a few years now ;-)
I'm optimistic that we won't feel the need to get a Land Rover at least...
"
CityCentreLeith Team (@CityCentreLeith)
24/02/2015 13:45
@CyclingEdin @south_team @SpokesLothian @Cyclescape CEC Cycling Team currently looking at further measures to make junction safer ^K
"
So after the video above was discussed, I emailed the council and got this reply:
"Thank you for your e-mail, dated 23 February 2015, regarding Forrest Road and for forwarding the link to the video.
Although this facility was implemented over 20 years ago, there appears to be a lack of understanding by motorists as to how to integrate with cyclists merging from the left hand lane.
This issue was raised last year and the Council undertook remedial work to repaint the road centre lines. However, as the problem appears to be continuing we will review the layout and consider further potential solutions. This is likely to include advisory signage and changes to the road markings at this location. Should a suitable proposal be identified we expect to be able to implement the changes in Autumn 2015."
I then responded and said that signage seemed unlikely to help, but that if the cycle lane was not permanently blocked with parked vehicles, it would be fine. and got this reply today:
"Vehicle parking in the cycle lane is prohibited between 0730–1830 Monday to Friday and 0800–1830 on Saturdays. Loading vehicles are permitted to stop in the cycle lane most of the time, except 0730–0930 and 1600–1830 Monday to Friday.
Additional vehicle/loading restrictions were recently introduced on this road on the east side between Doctor’s pub and the Cappadocia kebab shop to reduce delays to bus services. This has added pressure to the remaining loading areas, for which there is significant demand from the numerous businesses and residential properties fronting the street. We therefore consider that further restrictions could potentially meet with significant resistance and be deemed unreasonable.
However, given that parking/loading is now prohibited for much of the eastern side of the street, we will investigate whether there is an alternative road layout arrangement that could better protect the cycle lane.
We have also made contact with NSL, who carry out traffic enforcement for the Council, to request that they monitor parking/loading behaviour on this road."
"to reduce delays to bus services"
Aren't buses from Lauriston Place delayed by west side parking??
So if they had selected to have the vehicle loading take place on the east side of the road, with restrictions to parking on the west, then neither the cycle lane nor the bus stop *should* be blocked between 0730–1830 every day.
"lack of understanding by motorists as to how to integrate with cyclists merging from the left hand lane"
It may have been said before, but in the video at start of this post (and usually?) it is the car which changes lane and crosses into the left-hand lane.
The markings show that traffic from Teviot Place having turned right into Forrest Road should keep to the right of the central warning line, and traffic from Lauriston Pl/ MMW having turned left into Forrest Road should keep to the left of the central warning line, unless/until it is safe to cross the warning line. Right-turners seem to assume that having come through a green light they should have right of way and fail to realise they shouldn't cross the warning line unless it is safe.
Is this too simplistic -
Rebuild of the cobbled pavement / tree / dog poo repository bit on the west side and make it a proper segregated (bricks and mortar, not with paint) bike lane all the way to the lights opposite Bedlam theatre, depositing cyclists ahead of any stopped traffic.
Put the wheelie bins in the area occupied by the current 'cycle lane' and make proper loading bays on one side, double reds on the other.
@Nelly that wouldn't do much to help Bedlam right turners
@Nelly - I like this idea (but I've just noticed the objection by jdanielp with which I agree so probably some modification is required), but alas I've just done a fag packet costing and it comes to a bit more than £4.37p
Indeed mine is a far from ideal plan but it did take me all of 30 seconds to devise :-)
So, taking another 10 seconds out of my day, thoughts for bedlam right turners gives me -
At the ASL ahead of the bedlam lights, cyclists priority button placing North and Southbound lights to red, cyclists zip across the island and into Bristo Place - again ahead of the traffic.
Im on fire.................
It is more uncommon for no vehicles to parked/loading in the cycle lane when I pass at around 8.30. I naturally assumed that no restrictions on loading were in place. I have certainly never seen any enforcement taking place.
I can't help think that adjusting the lighting sequence would resolve much of the conflict and could benefit both pedestrians and cyclists. Maybe a 10 second delay to the green light for the Teviot Place traffic would allow the majority of cyclists to clear the junction.
To my mind, there is currently too much of a priority given to the roads at this junction so that you commonly get pedestrians (and cyclists) crossing on the red man.
"I've just done a fag packet costing and it comes to a bit more than £4.37p"
Wot price safety blah blah...
@slowcoach
"The markings show that traffic from Teviot Place having turned right into Forrest Road should keep to the right of the central warning line, and traffic from Lauriston Pl/ MMW having turned left into Forrest Road should keep to the left of the central warning line, unless/until it is safe to cross the warning line."
That's (part of) the 'problem'. Such layouts result from councils (this design may be pre-CEC) assuming that (all) road users know the rules AND obey them!
When Forrest Road was re-designed there was much less 'cycle traffic' and much less pressure (and political will) to 'increase the number of people cycling/journeys by bike'.
I would ague that that this isn't really a 'cycling issue' and most of the money shouldn't be expected to come out of the Cycling Budget. That said, sorting things like this ought to be more of a priority than the Family Network.
Perhaps Sustrans should get involved with advice/money(?)
"I can't help think that adjusting the lighting sequence would resolve much of the conflict and could benefit both pedestrians and cyclists. Maybe a 10 second delay to the green light for the Teviot Place traffic would allow the majority of cyclists to clear the junction.
To my mind, there is currently too much of a priority given to the roads at this junction so that you commonly get pedestrians (and cyclists) crossing on the red man."
Yes, this whole area needs a 'look at' especially to benefit pedestrians - not least by reducing potential for ped/cycle conflict (easier said than done!)
@Nelly that might work, although having to stop to press a button might be a little frustrating when otherwise it may have been possible to get around the corner with the normal traffic flow, and the temptation to stop and hold the button down for extended periods might be too great.
As a business owner in Forrest Road (the soup cafe) and cyclist who uses Forrest Rd everyday when I cycle into my work at Teviot Place from Stockbridge, frequent pedestrian in the area and occasional city car club driver I would love to see the Spokes' proposal implemented. The current crossing is a nightmare and the design of Forrest Rd might as well be meant to cause congestion. Making Forrest Rd one way for service traffic (towards George IV bridge) and putting a 2-way cycle lane in would be great. Making Teviot Place and Bristo Place two-way and moving the bus stop from Forrest rd to Teviot Place would ease traffic and conflicts massively.
One of the biggest conflicts is that a lot of cyclists want to come up Middle Meadow Walk and turn right which is currently impossible. Putting a two-way segregated cycle lane on Teviot Place (university side) would immediately remove the temptation to cycle on the pavement.
Removing the central fence on Potterow and continuing the two way cycle lane (or putting the cycle lane through the university area) would then join everything up.
Forrest Rd is a really pretty street (when you look properly at it) that is currently ruined by traffic congestion and a massive number of commercial bins. If we could solve congestion then the businesses could organise to centralise bin collections (as in the Rose Street trial) to take a massive amount of unpleasant clutter off the pavements. Personally I would love to see something like this happen. From the Royal Mile, down George IV bridge, along Forrest Rd and down to the Meadows could be one of the prettiest walks in Edinburgh. There are beautiful buildings and all sorts of historical remnants that could be brought back properly to life.
Bruce
@Deleriad - great post. Do you think the other business owners on Forrest Road feel the same way?
@algo, hard to say. The usual objection to this kind of thing is fear of cars not being able to park but cars can't park anyway and right now loading is a nightmare so they may be persuadable on an almost anything is better than the current situation basis. Taxi drivers may complain because Forrest Road is a real rat ran at night for late night drinking pick ups. The late night food sellers may complain for the same reason.
Speaking as a citizen, I think it's important that business contributes towards making the city more liveable for everyone not just some concept of more convenient for businesses. Speaking as a business owner, I think anything that makes my environment friendlier and more attractive to pedestrians and cyclists (not to mention mobility vehicle users) will make me more money.
So, as I see it, it's good for me the citizen, me the business owner and me when driving a vehicle because I no longer have to sit in queues when Forrest Rd blocks up. Hard to see a down side.
@Deleriad welcome to CCE.
Very useful first posts.
And Deleriad has a classic Citroen too, so should definitely be listened to.
There are changes coming in that area due to University plans; lets hope proper integration of MMW is part of that.
MMW has been repainted with much more cycling signs, but also with SLOW and give way markings. Interesting to see what effect they have.
Thanks!, Dumbo loves you all!
I was using the new "slow" give-way signs a few minutes ago, walking back from the library to middle meadow walk. Causing some confusion because there were a lot of pedestrians going across and one cyclist who was trying to turn into George Square.
They're probably a good idea especially as they have repainted all the cycle lane markings too. I know that it is quite alarming sometimes when you're walking near the white line without paying attention and bike zips by at 20mph. As a cyclist I find it a bit nerve wracking because you can never be sure when a child or dog is going to suddenly run into the lane and it can get *very* busy with little room for error.
I did notice that the Spokes plan seems to envision a bike lane across Bristo Square, presumably as part of the redevelopment. I don't remember seeing anything on the plans I saw a few months ago.
Here's also an interesting piece of data. For two weeks just gone they segregated the bike lane on Teviot Place and the world didn't end. (Well, they blocked off the pavement with scaffolding and used the bike lane as a segregated pedestrian way and it caused zero issues...)
@Deleriad blocking off the pavement outside McEwan Hall caused minor issues for me because I had to wait in the traffic queue most mornings before I could find space to filter onto the unblocked section of cycle lane and then join MMW - this route is generally freely accessible to bikes regardless of how busy the traffic is, unless, of course, a driver decides to half pull out onto the cycle lane as happens some mornings. The traffic seemed busier during this period too, but the world did indeed not end.
@jdanielp yes I agree. I got blocked a couple of mornings ago. It does show that if there is a properly connected and segregated cycle lane there that there is plenty of room for motor traffic in the rest of the road.
I genuinely nearly walked straight in to a cyclist at the junction today. Walked up middle meadow walk, crossed on the green man and headed towards Doctors pub. Same time a cyclist crossed on the green bike and headed towards Forest Road, basically crossing paths. The cyclistdid get some strange looks from th car that nearly crashed in to him subsequently as he (legally) cycled along Forrest Road.
I agree that Forrest Road just does not work - for anybody.
150317143207IMG_0750 by fountainbridge, on Flickr
150317143215IMG_0751 by fountainbridge, on Flickr
Eventually when the city prioritises public transport and yields to the obvious desire to walk and cycle from the Meadows then this will be re-done.
Forrest Road will then become a 'green spur' reaching north. There will be space for 'clean' buses and delivery vehicles (some delivery vehicles may even have pedals). Cafes will be on re-aligned pavements. Greggs will sell healthy food etc...
Cars will go round by Bristo - but by then there will be less of them as healthy transport options abound. Budget hotels will offer bike hire of course... even L'Hotel du Vin.
That may sounds like nonsense to some - but what is the attractive alternative? :-)
Lothian bus held up for a good five minutes by badly parked truck on corner. I cycled round blockage to post office. Just cleared after I left. Bus driver was sounding his horn but to no immediate effect
Then followed by next bus blocked by another truck parked in a different place.
So for quite a while the street was only open to pedestrians and cyclists. A sort of self imposed improve for the better.
I wonder what the cost to LRT is of buses not moving at this point? Or does it not really matter much as schedules can be made up later?
Of course a huge queue of cars were held behind the bus...
"... the cost to LRT is of buses not moving ..." Is BusTracker data used (or could it be used) to monitor where/when delays happen, with a view to reducing them?
"... the cost to LRT is of buses not moving ..."
Not Forrest Road but regular occurrence on the 41 route in Marchmont opposite Laid Back shop.
Electric hybrid bus vesus eco-friendly Volvo.
Said car parks where he pleases - 20mph limit fault of course;-)
Gets out car and uses ScotMid by taking vacant space on priority parking (aka double yellow line). 41 waits and waits. Sounds horn. Time passes. Volvo driver upset that his selfish needs are not appreciated by those less fortunate trip-sharing by bus. Cue bus-driver having to leave bus and photograph car after driver argues that he will block road as he sees fit. Said driver then U-turns across road to go to Pastures - no doubt having a coffee and good old moan.
Cost on 'traffic flow'? Who knows?
2015-03-27 14.18.33 by LaidBackBikes, on Flickr
Reminded by something else I went to check out the cycle elements of the Bristo square revelopment. See Document 71
Essentially they are treating various paths across Bristo Square as shared space: not my favourite idea but be that as it may. This would however be the perfect opportunity for Spokes' suggestions - including a two-way cycle-path between Middle Meadow Walk and Bristo Square - to be put into action. Happy to lend whatever influence we have to this.
https://twitter.com/RangiRevo/status/592411557268684800
Very surprised at @POPScotland to realise there are shops in Forest Road. Every other time I pass through it's just a wall of bins & vans.
So as people know, the Council have decided that removing trade waste bins from Forrest Road is a good idea. By the end of June at the latest, the road should no longer be a wall of bins. Here's hoping that lends strength to the proposal from Spokes.
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