CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

The Sustrans proposals for Picardy Place/Leith Street

(868 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by crowriver
  • Latest reply from crowriver

  1. chdot
    Admin

    5.2 Any fundamental review of the current design could put at risk these agreements, the delivery programme, and Scottish Government funding, with resulting further risk to the delivery of any revised layout and to the extension of the tram.

    Clearly this is true.

    It may indeed be designed to put pressure on councillors.

    BUT councillors also know they can’t get away with saying ‘our hands are tied’.

    Parts of the SG certainly want the layout changed, it’s likely that wish will prevail.

    ‘We’ have argued that the current proposals undermine the tram extension, so that shouldn’t be a problem either.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    "BUT councillors also know they can’t get away with saying ‘our hands are tied’."

    They can turn around and say "We can't change this because......contracts have been signed already".

    Which is effectively what 5.4 says.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    The report is less than candid about the design brief. Consider what it states as the criteria:

    2.1  In 2007 the Council approved a redesign of Picardy Place to allow the delivery of Tram Line 1A (outlined in appendix 1). This approval was followed in 2009 by outline planning consent of the St James Centre redevelopment and subsequently the same year of the ‘Picardy Place Development Principles (PPDP). This design established the basic form of a triangular arrangement of one way streets connected by traffic signal controlled junctions. The design sought to improve conditions for walking, but made no off carriageway cycling provision and provided very limited provision on carriageway.

    There’s a bit of sophistry at work here. When you look at the PPDP, there were different options suggested, not one design as stated above. Certainly not all options were “a triangular arrangement of one way streets connected by traffic signal controlled junctions.” Only the "prior approval" design made in 2007 for the tram by TIE was configured in this way. Other options included extending a "pedestrian priority zone" from the cathedral out to the "island" with some permeability for traffic. Which is not at all what the repot attempts to assert.

    Also note the watering down of language from the PPDP from “maximising access by foot, bicycle and public transport” to merely “improve conditions for walking”.

    How did this “finessing” of the design brief occur? How was the solution of “a triangular arrangement of one way streets connected by traffic signal controlled junctions” arrived at? Who made the decision to downgrade “maximising access by foot, bicycle and public transport!” to the markedly less ambitious “improve conditions for walking”?

    This paragraph in particular raises more questions than it answers about the design process:

    2.4  Building on the 2009 Development Principles, from 2014 onwards, a revised deign for Picardy Place has been developed in a process involving Council officials, the developer of St James, Sustrans Ltd (though Sustrans Ltd have recently ceased direct involvement in the project) and Lothian Buses.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  4. HankChief
    Member

    I've just tweeted 5.2 to Humza

    @HumzaYousaf
    @Edinburgh_CC are worried about losing @scotgov funding if they have fundamental review of #PicardyPlace
    Please reassure them https://t.co/btwTB9mlXK

    Posted 6 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    This is a concept from the 2009 Picardy Place Design Principles document. Similar ideas to Sustrans proposal if more timid. I can't be sure, but it looks like drawing suggests a shared space approach between Broughton Street/York Place and Leith Street: see Exhibition Road, London for a well known example. Sustrans concept clearly much better, but at least they were considering pedestrians more.

    I do wonder what the process was that led from this to a retread of the TIE designed carmageddon that was signed off...

    (click image to see properly)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  6. Frenchy
    Member

    (click image to see properly)

    Possibly a problem on my end, but I don't see any image to click.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  7. Klaxon
    Member

    The green hatching on that design seems to be about keeping open views and not closed roads

    It has the sweet scent of greenwashing

    Or maybe a frustrated designer who wanted the Y-design in the brief but kept being frustrated

    Posted 6 years ago #
  8. crowriver
    Member

    Well it clearly says "Open space - Pedestrian priority". It is a bit vague as to what that means, and there is still a grey "Vehicle circulation" arrow. That's what led me to speculate this was an attempt as "shared space".

    See Rose Street and Castle Street for examples of how shared space works, or rather doesn't work, in an Edinburgh context. Free-for-all parking and loading, drivers bullying pedestrians, etc.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  9. Morningsider
    Member

    The Growth Accelerator Model contracts are not publicly available - although Councillors can see them. Without knowing what these commit the various parties to doing, it is hard to know what can be changed.

    I think councillors urgently need to ask the following questions:

    1. Does the GAM contract specifically prevent the proposed design of Picardy Place junction from being changed?
    2. How did officials reach the conclusion that "... there is no scope for major redesign without putting at risk the GAM agreement"?
    3. How would any change to the proposed design of Picardy Place need to be be approved?
    4. Has the Scottish Government indicated that it would withdraw from the GAM agreement if the proposed Picardy Place junction were to be redesigned?
    5. Have the developers of the St James Centre indicated they would cease, delay or curtail the redevelopment if the proposed Picardy Place junction was to be redesigned?
    6. What discussions have officials had with the Scottish Government and the developers on this issue within the last year and what were the outcomes?
    7. Why did Sustrans withdraw from the team designing the new Picardy Place junction?

    I also think Councillors should ask officials to explain how they think the proposed designs meet the four key objectives for the scheme, i.e:

    1. Improving public realm.
    2. Improving conditions for pedestrians and cyclists.
    3. Protecting the efficiency of public transport.
    4. Providing the opportunity for public transport integration.

    Hopefully a Councillor will try and get firm answers to such questions. The official's report is clearly aimed at steamrollering through the current plans.

    (1) http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/50078/item_82_-_st_james_quarter_-_update_on_progress

    Posted 6 years ago #
  10. mcairney
    Member

    "Induced demand should be really easy to understand on a personal level. Who hasn't had thoughts like:

    1. I'd love to live in Dalkeith/Fife but commuting through Sheriffhall/FRB would be a nightmare
    2. I would drive into town but its the festival and I'll never get parked so I'll take the bus instead

    It is a tiny step from thoughts like these to:

    1. If they increase the capacity through Sheriffhall more Edinburgh workers will move to Dalkeith/Fife, increasing traffic
    2. If Edinburgh had more parking, more people would drive "

    But we can't all be smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite who can afford to live 5-10 minutes cycle from their city centre workplace.

    Edinburgh is a no-go area during August no matter your method of transport. Mind you it's a good opportunity to explore the rest of Scotland.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  11. mcairney
    Member

    W.R.T the Picardy Place plans this is a great opportunity to improve the bus infrastructure and migrate bus traffic from the Bridges bottleneck and Princes St. I would start by prioritising buses, then looking to improve links to the new cycling infrastructure East-West and North-South. I don't think shared spaces work and they should just make Rose St pedestrian only except early morning for deliveries.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  12. crowriver
    Member

    "we can't all be smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite "

    Whoa. Approaching Brexit levels of chippiness there.

    You should come to Abbeyhill or Leith and explain to local residents how they're "smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite ". Be prepared for a strong reaction!

    "they should just make Rose St pedestrian only except early morning for deliveries."

    Allegedly this is the situation now. The reality is rather different...

    Posted 6 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    @Morningsider, hopefully you've already written to your councillors about this? (Especially Cllr Cook) :D

    Posted 6 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "

    "we can't all be smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite "

    Whoa. Approaching Brexit levels of chippiness there.

    "

    Paragraph 2 is close to breaching rule 1.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "But we can't all be smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite"

    Don't wish to see whole threads on % of CCE that is

    a) smug

    b) middle-class

    c) metropolitan

    d) elite

    The implication is valid in a more general sense.

    'We' generally understand that the world would be a better place if more people cycled more often.

    I suspect CCEers may have a higher % of car ownership than the Edinburgh average.

    Sometimes there is the 'we are hard done by vibe' - not without some justification.

    I think (hope) that CCEers are more aware of/concerned about pedestrian/PT issues than many 'cyclists'.

    I also think that (for many reasons) we have more choices or are at least aware of more options and possibilities than many people.

    'We' are constantly concerned with 'things that could be better' and poor decisions by others (e.g. CEC & SG).

    But it doesn't mean we have all the answers/facts!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  16. crowriver
    Member

    "metropolitan" - If Edinburgh is a "metropolis" (definition includes Livingston?) then those who live in Edinburgh are "metropolitan" unless they're maybe "suburban".

    As to the remaining qualifiers, can't comment on other CCEers. All I know is people round where I live would strongly object to being labelled as such...

    For hard "facts" compiled by "experts" try looking at the Scottish Index Of Multiple Deprivation and then check the areas in Edinburgh which are 5-10 minutes cycle to major or minor employers. You may be surprised by the results.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  17. mcairney
    Member

    @crowriver- I've lived in Edinburgh all my life and went to a school with a catchment area that included multiple areas of deprivation. I consider myself well-balanced thanks to the resultant chips on both shoulders ;-)

    Posted 6 years ago #
  18. Rob
    Member

    "But we can't all be smug members of the middle-class metropolitan elite who can afford to live 5-10 minutes cycle from their city centre workplace."

    No, but generally anyone buying a house could buy a bigger one further from an employment hub, if they're willing to deal with the inconvenience. Reduce the inconvenience and more people will be willing to make that compromise. Before you know it you're back where you started.

    "Edinburgh is a no-go area during August no matter your method of transport. Mind you it's a good opportunity to explore the rest of Scotland."

    That's a pretty good example of traffic evaporation.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  19. Stickman
    Member

    http://www.broughtonspurtle.org.uk/news/picardy-place-reactions

    Letter from Leith Community Council:


    I understand that on the feedback received in the wake of the information session at Multrees Walk a report will be presented to the Transport & Environment Committee on 5 October.

    I write to advise that such a short consultation period is not workable for Community Councils – we get more generous consultation deadlines for applications to erect a garden shed.

    In addition, the information presented at the information session lacked technical detail and seems to replace a round with a triangular gyratory that prioritises a still theoretical tram extension and motor traffic accessing the vastly expanded St James parking provision.

    Perhaps more time is needed to work up the technical detail and come up with a design that unambiguously prioritises pedestrians. It would also be appropriate to arrange presentations to the Community Councils most impacted by the proposals.

    Also a long letter from the New Town Community Council, whose chair is Ian Mowat and whose wife Jo sits on the Transport Comittee.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  20. dougal
    Member

    "Edinburgh is a no-go area during August"

    It's true! Like a ghost-town! Nobody can get in!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

    Edinburgh is a World City, a fact that goes well beyond its inscription as a World Heritage Site. It is frequently cited as being one of the most beautiful cities in the world and rightly so. However, the investment required to manage the essential qualities that make this accolade possible lags well behind not only the immediate needs of the city, its heritage and its landscape, but also in terms of its betterment and improvement.

    https://uk.linkedin.com/in/terry-levinthal-495b4226

    Posted 6 years ago #
  22. crowriver
    Member

    "Ian Mowat and whose wife Jo sits on the Transport Committee."

    Maybe she used to, but not any more.

    Cllr Joanna Mowat does however sit on the Planning Committee.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    ELDERLY people are being left isolated and afraid to go into town centres because they are scared to cross the road at green man crossings.

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15573797.Video__Elderly_afraid_to_cross_road_at__too_fast__green_man_crossings/

    Posted 6 years ago #
  24. gembo
    Member

    You can sense the tension. The green man is on the older person is edging slowly out into the middle of the road. But the driver needs to get on, Rev, Rev, fury.,fury

    The driver speeds through clipping the older person. It goes to court but turns out the older person was not wearing a helmet and was wobbling so the driver could not do anything else.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The Scottish capital was ranked alongside Paris and Copenhagen, which topped the categories for bigger populations, in the European Commission findings.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/edinburgh-is-a-leading-cultural-pulse-of-europe-finds-new-study-1-4577271

    All fine then.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    From the green man research: "The surprise finding".

    Not a surprise to me. There's barely enough time for anyone to cross on the green man on most busy roads in Edinburgh. Even when the crossings are directly opposite sheltered housing for the elderly.

    Lead researcher Professor Martijn Steultjens of Glasgow Caledonian University: "“This was an unexpected find."

    How was it unexpected? Unless all the researchers are young, able-bodied and drive everywhere I fail to see how they could not have anticipated this. Unless they assumed that elderly people drive everywhere too?

    Anyway, I'm glad they did the research, and are presenting it to MSPs. I also agree with this:

    “I do not feel this story about the many people suffering because of the Green Man is well enough known, and I think it is time that city centres consider whether they are catering for an ageing population and people who experience difficulties in walking.”

    Posted 6 years ago #
  27. jonty
    Member

    The sad thing is the underlying implication that drivers are sat there waiting to speed on straight through any OAPs who happen to be in their way the second the light goes green. I think often this isn't the case and folk will wait anyway, but it's sad that driving culture has got to the point where green often means GO GO GO and lean on the horn if anyone's in your way, not 'maybe just give that guy with the crutches a couple more seconds before you pull away?'

    Posted 6 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The problem has been identified as part of £1.8 million five-year study aimed at helping sufferers of rheumatoid arthritis. Researchers found that concern over the speed with which the green man turned red was raised by many people.

    "

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/elderly-struggle-to-cross-road-before-green-man-stops-rz3mnmh3c

    Problem here is that it will be taken as only being a problem for people with 'severe' mobility issues.

    Which is clearly far from the case.

    Tmings are often dictated by 'traffic flow' mantras.

    Posted 6 years ago #
  29. crowriver
    Member

    I remember being shocked by the aggressiveness of drivers in London when I moved there in the mid-1990s. They would set off as soon as the lights started changing, even before if they realised the green man had expired. Taxis, minicabs and motorcycle couriers were the worst.

    In my naive provincial innocence I had grown used to more patient Scottish drivers and being able to cross in those few seconds between the green man expiring and the amber light coming on. I soon learned that did not work in London!

    Twenty years on and Scottish drivers have caught up with the London of the 1990s, and are every bit as aggressive. Watch out for private hire vehicles in particular.

    "Tmings are often dictated by 'traffic flow' mantras."

    Indeed. I wrote to the council roads department a few years ago complaining about the timings on the crossings at the junction of London Road and Montrose Terrace. It's impossible to cross that junction in one movement unless you run. Hardly suitable for a crossing opposite a primary school and sheltered housing for the elderly. Many people end up stranded on the traffic island in the middle of the junction until the next pedestrian phase.

    The response from the officer responsible was certainly fulsome. The timings were within the range allowed by the regulations, this is a bus priority route, if pedestrians require to cross in one movement there's another crossing further down the road. Brushing me off, in short. Nothing much has changed since, except we now have an awful gyratory and the timings have got shorter!

    Posted 6 years ago #
  30. wingpig
    Member

    To be fair to the researchers the point sometimes has to be made even on here that not everyone is swift/balanced/strong/brave, regarding accelerating away at junctions or taking lanes going up hills on rutted streets.

    To be fair to some motor vehicle operators, you sometimes see them waiting for pedestrian crossing to finish the flashing-amber phase, even when any pedestrians have cleared the crossing.

    Posted 6 years ago #

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