@Roibeard & Steveo, now that is a PY I've *got* to get to! I wonder what the weapons of choice will be... tall bikes and lances maybe? :-D
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
"Edinburgh faces £1m tram payout to injured cyclists"
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Posted 11 years ago #
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Arellcat TTC does things sensibly and places the trams in the middle of the street, and they are in that place for all traditional, and dare I say properly planned and managed, tram systems.*
The law, which is largely respected, holds that when a tram stops in the middle of the street ALL the traffic in the nearside lane(s) stops to let passengers alight from and board the tram and cross to/from the sidewalk (footway). same applied in Edinburgh and Glasgow on their original systems
As a result most streets in Toronto have a complete nearside lane width in which most cyclists are riding, with no tram rails in it.
The central position of the tracks also means that at a turn-back loop or junction the tram track are well-turned by the point that a cyclist will be crossing them and many Toronto cyclists, will veer right (actually the correct navigational term - veering being clockwise) and further ensure they cross the rails as near to square as possible.
It suggests a serious lack of competence in design or checking the design detail that we have a cycle lane on Haymarket Terrace with a tram rail running right down the centre. and also set in the roadway at the foot of the slope is the pointwork for a turn-back siding/loop. This detail is advised against in ORR - DESIGN REQUIREMENTS FOR STREET TRACK (TTG Note 1)
p11. The desirable finish detail is shown on p7*In a comparison of build costs for tram systems, the costs per Km for current projects in Germany & France were being quoted as 1/20th (ie 5%) of the current likely cost of the Edinburgh system, and new projects were being delivered at the rate of 4 per year compared to one every 4 years for the UK. It does rather speak for itself.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cyclists with narrow tyres... be very careful at the newly opened part of Princes St. This may deserve a new thread - I just went over it today and I reckon it rates as a category A risk.
If you go straight on you have to cross at shallo angle unless you slow up and go over carefully. This is a narrow bit of road so you will be reliant on the skills of drivers sharing road. Signs are up.Great for developing bike handling skills - not to everyone's taste I fear.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Shandwick Place end or St Andrews Street? Any chance of a picture of road profile Laidback? Arellcat reports losing control by striking/falling off the edge of the coloured surfacing (near Castle Street?) but nowhere near the rails.
Roads design manual says flat to a tolerance of 3mm under a straightedge for tarmac surface. Pictures of Nottingham show a far better quality of finish to that I've seen so far in Edinburgh.
Posted 11 years ago # -
This is the new tram turn into St Andrew's Square just opposite Waverley. Danger is for traffic going straight on.
I need to get down when it's not so wet.Posted 11 years ago # -
Tulyar, I hadn't got as far as Castle Street! It was at the junction with South Charlotte Street. I had come down from Lothian Road and crossed the rails at the West End quite safely, but while aligning myself to head east along Princes St my front wheel skidded sharply to one side as it caught the green surface just before the traffic lights. I was jolted off my seat and just managed to get my feet down.
I was so annoyed that I turned left and used Rose Street instead. Then I got completely snarled up at St Andrew Square and for a minute couldn't actually work out how to get to Waverley. If I had been aiming to catch a train I would have missed it.
Probably should add that Nottingham's installation is pretty much completely competent. I've motorbiked around the city (in winter) and never felt in any particular danger. Edinburgh's slapdash approach bears more than a passing similarity to its traditional method of repairing potholes.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Seems like we could ask a few councillors / officials / planners to demonstrate riding straight on at this junction while not crossing the lines at less than 45 degrees...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Have pic now on my flickr site. Sorry can't post easily here in mobile... broadband down.
So you can see from pic that all traffic (bikes, buses, taxis and trams) enter a single lane heading east. Trams veer off to left. Your mission is to cross the tracks at the correct angle bearing in mind that you are in traffic which may mean you should look very carefully.
Chdot or anyone welcome to grab code from my pic and insert.Posted 11 years ago # -
Posted 11 years ago #
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That is a very nasty looking pinch point to boot, I noticed it this morning but didn't think on having to reckon with tram rails at the same time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
You'd have to be either on or left of the yellow lines to get anything like a safe angle to cross those. Which would require a swift swerve back to the right afterwards. All of which which isn't going to endear the rider to adjacent/following traffic...
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'll be riding over that in about 3 hours time. If I live to tell the tale, I'll let you know what happens.
I think there are traffic lights and an ASL quite soon before reaching it. That might be the best bet: if the lights are red, shuffle over to the right hand side of the lines and get ahead of the traffic just before the lights go green.
23mm slicks - can't wait.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I was on 37mm Kojaks on my recliner - had to really slow up to be sure of line, checking my mirror to make sure I had space from bus behind.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/66067108@N08/8219702571/Posted 11 years ago # -
There must be a knee-jerk lobby emerging in council circles to think up a scheme to have cyclists banned from tram routes, for their own safety
Quick win all round, job's a good un
Posted 11 years ago # -
Know 53 people have seen this... here's that pic top layer. This is going to be a heavily contested bit of road!
Tram lane with left turn tracks by LaidBackBikes, on FlickrPosted 11 years ago # -
Jebersus, that's horrible. My instinct there would be to enter the cobbled section (as if trying to go left of that red bin-looking object) and then switch right to maximise my line-crossing angle. All well and good if there's no-one or Lothian drivers behind me, but ruddy dangerous with taxis or Worsts.
Still looks like a better plan than risking a rut'n'tumble.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well.....sort of. IIRC Princes Street wil be trams, buses, taxis and cycles only. A two way bus lane with trams, basically. So not too bad.
If it were me approaching those (and I've done it through the snaking contraflow that was there until recently) I'd be in the middle of the tracks, slightly to the left, then do a 45 degree turn across towards the gap in the central reservation, cross the single track, straughten up and head off. Any impatient taxis/buses will have undertaken after that wee manouvre but at least I'm not in their blind spot.
Slightly chunky tyres are an asset in these circumstances...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Tried it today, turning left onto it after having been along George Street, so I was starting the left of both tracks. The vehicle behind me was leaving me lots of space for zigzagging to perpendiculate across, which was probably only because it was a private car which had sneaked through and was probably feeling too suspicious to harass me.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Council better get saving up for paying off the litigants. That's dreadful! It's not so much to do with tramlines as completely thoughtless road layout. You can't go round on the right, because they've narrowed the road, and because the pavement has been built out, you can't safely go round on the left.
It's like someone intentionally wanted to design cycling OUT of Princes Street.
Ideally, you'd have a cycle lane that mounts pavement to the left, a holding area, and then a marked cycle lane perpendicularly across the tram lines. It would have crossing lights and wouldn't require a button as there would be a bicycle detector. I'm sure any first-rate European city would be able to do this. But second rate "we'll be world class so long as we keep saying we are" Edinburgh couldn't ever do something as simple as this.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"It is time that thought was given to some system of giving bikes registration plates or other means of regulating them or else making cyclists insure for third-party claims against them."
Plus, RLJ, pavements, injuries, carelessness... Here was me thinking most of us were law abiding, upstanding (or reclining) experienced and thoughtful road users, but well shoot, ain't y'all just a freeloadin', law breakin', speedin' menace.
Posted 11 years ago # -
because obliging motorists to have registration plates has been proven to make them all saints on the road.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Arellcat's link to the letter was wrong - it's here:
Posted 11 years ago # -
"because obliging motorists to have registration plates has been proven to make them all saints on the road."
This is true (as in I note the sarcasm and agree with it), though it's an argument I tend to shy away from because I always think some smart Alec will then tell me that if that's the case maybe cars should be registered and drivers shouldn't be licenced since they don't work.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"causing potential injuries" - I love it. Not sure about the dodgy looking characters in the photo though!
I assume the writer would be happy for the taxpayer to spend tens of millions of pounds establishing the bureaucracy required for a UK bike register. After all, who could argue with the benefit it would bring...
Posted 11 years ago # -
My reaction that photo breaks the site rules.
I shall at some point show those rails to my ever-so-clever boyfriend and ask him how he's going to cross them at 90 degrees...Posted 11 years ago # -
It doesn't look much different from the tracks at Haymarket Yards that I cross every day. All it takes is a little wiggle of the front wheel to cross them almost perpendicular and it takes you about 6 inches off the line you were previously travelling along. It's not like you need a big run up to them. The front wheel needs to turn just before them to hit them at 90 degrees and can turn back once you're across. The second track you could ride straight over.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Must learn properly how to bunny hop....
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Smudge yes, with 4 panniers :)
Posted 11 years ago # -
Indeed, will probably need to be clipped in for that :-o
Posted 11 years ago # -
The angle of the tracks (within limits) is surely less important than the flushness with the road surface.
Posted 11 years ago #
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