CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Booking bikes on trains

(87 posts)

  1. Tulyar
    Member

    We're on the case

    Around 20 years ago, I worked with the head of PR at Cross Country to defuse a big row over bikes on trains on local services around Bristol, and that morphed into their cycles policy, 2 reservable spaces, 1+ non-reservable on trains - with staff discretion - often 6-7 bikes on Sheffield-Leeds early morning commuter trains - (the 4 HST's that generally work diagrams Edinburgh-Leeds-Plymouth retain coach A (called coach F by Cross Country), with a van-space that managed to carry 24 bikes on the last train back from Glasgow to Edinburgh, after a big CTC Lothians Ride in the distant (BR) past.

    My flickr album https://www.flickr.com/photos/h52/albums/72157666548592209 collates pictures of the Class 220/221 Coach D abomination (and some Virgin coach A's) The system is clearly not fit for purpose as the brackets bend and the bolts pull out of the ceiling, with the fap for 2 bikes = 55cm 1 bike = 63 cm (most straight 'bars now = 70-75cm hence all the paint worn off the interior panels!

    We're on the Cross Country case, with CyclingUK, following from my arranging a meeting in York with LNER about the Azumas last month. The XC flare up was triggered by a freelance journalist who got a rather bad twitter response, which basically said "If you can't load your bike in the cupboard space don't bother travelling on our train" Naturally we need to get some of the heat out of this in order to resolve matters, and there needs to be some context for the current and future prospects.

    1) The trains are owned, maintained and a set number are supplied on contract to operate by Beacon Rail, who own & maintain all the Voyagers from 3 Rivers Depot in Burton OT
    2) They were modified with design input from the builder Bombardier in Derby, largely to a specification set by DfT - who wanted more seats, and more luggage space, on the 204/264-seat trains, which replaced the 352-seat trains (with a half-van) that were used on the route.
    3) I did try to press for a much better layout in Coach D but no real engagement seemed to take place in delivering the end result.
    4) As with so much rail stuff in England there us a stasis in making decisions. At present the Cross Country 'franchise' is getting short 'extensions' with no clear picture of what sort of trains will ultimately be agreed.
    5) The Voyagers are due a major mid-life rebuild, and the fleet could be enhanced by transfer of Virgin or East Midlands units - all also due a mid-life refit. Here is the place to get in with the train owners, and the franchise specification.

    Every December I join former BR Scotland engineers for our Christmas reunion - one of them used to be the Bombardier engineer at 3 Rivers. I hope that with some quiet work the sensational headlines can be turned into sensible progress.

    I do have a couple of further observations.

    1) Hilarity at the claim that 80 seats (a full 23 metre coach-worth) could be put in the space taken out to provide for cycles!
    2) The need to catch up with the bike booking offer available. For Transpennine - soon to be running Edinburgh-Liverpool via Leeds there is in theory the ability to get on a train and immediately reserve an available space, and much the same with CrossCountry, using twitter or whatsapp. LNER discussions on loading protocols (with the locked cycle cupboards) need a bit more work.
    3) for places like Dunbar & Berwick the models which work well for Oxford and Brockenhurst, where the station staff are in contact with the crew on an incoming train, and assemble the cyclists ready to board where the right doors and spaces are on the train. This works especially well for Brockenhurst's weekend bike riders heading back to London.

    So that's about it I'd guess feedback welcomed - the good & the bad news! (Ig & perhaps a separate thread for Scotrail HST's and the Class 153 bike carriages

    Posted 4 years ago #
  2. LaidBack
    Member

    Thought this may be more relevant thread on search.

    So Mrs LB and I were on the Monday evening 17.35 HST back from Pitlochry (without bikes).

    Despite the discouragement to use PT because of CV-19 there is still a demand for bikes on rail. One guy turned up on spec at Pitlochry and was told that there was no way he could get on. Ditto for a guy left at Dunkeld.
    Train already had 4 bikes on it at Pitlochry. Two hanging and two in wheelchair spaces.
    Guard allowed two more on leaning against offside door.
    Speaking to cyclists (with mask on) they all had great trouble getting space even though they had bookings. One from Slovakia, one from England with missed connection and one near Edinburgh. So six bikes.

    Guards don't seem to check tickets with passengers - enough space for suitcase style luggage at least.

    ScotRail Intercity bike storage issue

    ScotRail Intercity bike storage issue

    ScotRail Intercity bike storage issue

    Posted 3 years ago #
  3. HankChief
    Member

    Someone's sad tale of bike / train fiasco from the highlands..

    https://twitter.com/pellucidewer/status/1305523780823941123?s=19

    Posted 3 years ago #
  4. edinburgh87
    Member

    A pretty sad example. I don't think I could cope with the 'will I / won't I' anxiety around getting my bike on a train to/from up North or the West Coast, especially from an intermediate station, nor have the patience to deal with the booking process which seems to be deliberately difficult. A shame as the potential is huge.

    Posted 3 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    Currently worse as you are supposed to book a seat (not just people with bikes).

    Posted 3 years ago #
  6. Tulyar
    Member

    Scottish Citylink & Megabus carry cycles, but no standing passengers permitted. So you need to get ticket & seat reservation to be certain of getting on board - Saltire Entitlement Cards are valid, and a seat reservation costs £1

    I'm pressing to get the bike spaces reservable, as they already are on the Ember services between Edinburgh and Dundee, which works well as this service never strays far from the M90/A90 for the limited number of stops

    The hourly Inverness-Broxden services have saved a few plans as has the 976 (Glasgow-Oban) and the 915 (Glasgow-Uig)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. mga
    Member

    The Ember bike space is just either the disabled space or the luggage hold. Not really any bike facilities as such although I think they are working on it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. Tulyar
    Member

    Luggage hold - same as Citylink uses

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    At last

    SR 125s to allow 12 bikes

    (Sometime)

    https://mobile.twitter.com/spokeslothian/status/1438490820559228930

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. Rosie
    Member

    I took my bike to Berwick-upon-Tweed a couple of months ago. They have those stand-on-end bicycle spaces, which only a fit, strong person can use. I cannot pick up my heavy bike on end and manoeuvre it over a hook. The guard helped me and of course ended up with filthy hands. He very kindly called the guard in Berwick to help me take the bike down. It's a ridiculous situation.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. LaidBack
    Member

    Update from tandem user booked on activity coach to Oban from Dalmuir yesterday.
    Unfortunately the planned train with activity coach was altered to just the normal two coach unit.
    The (decent) guard agreed to let them on as they had already past all the tests to book the phantom tandem space. Being a Circe Helios it could just fit but they had to unload their four panniers of course and make him happy by hanging from the back wheel.
    If of course it had been a Thorn or Dawes tandem it would not have fitted and they would have simply had to re-book and wait for next activity coach enabled train to Oban.(!)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. Tulyar
    Member

    Oban trains I've checked the Real Time Trains history

    Monday's morning trains ran with the Class 153, but the evening train did not

    Tuesday's morning train thus had no Class 153

    A tandem might just slide in at the accessible toilet end, as even with the sliding door removed the other end is tight even for an elephant bike

    This probably needs a nerd-check on what vehicles ran on what trains

    HST - I am rather concerned that the tender invitation says they have decided on & signed-off the design......

    The Coach A will be added to the 4-coach sets - there are a few going spare and with a proper design spec this space should take 5-6 bikes (proposal-4) The GWR ones - still in use took 6 bikes, as do the Cross Country ones.

    The power cars had an atrocious 3 bike 'thing' and I know that a regular high density bike rack could fit this space to take 4-5 bikes, dropped in place and fixed down to the floor. There's the length to fit a tandem in there (proposal-3)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    Used to be possible for dmus to pull wagons

    https://twitter.com/elwick70/status/1443262530390986757

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    Was on an HST yesterday. Power car had bike racks in the guard's van area. Most do I think, legacy from earlier operators. Unused of course, presumably ScotRail guards not keen. Could/should be possible to at least book bikes on for "end-to-end" journeys, e.g. Waverley to Aberdeen or Inverness (or vice-versa). If memory serves, getting bikes on/off power car at intermediate stops always a gamble and stressful situation...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    “getting bikes on/off power car at intermediate stops always a gamble and stressful situation”

    Had one of those, Berwick I think.

    Brake van stopped by ramp at end of platform.

    The SR sets are only 6 coaches in total, so I don’t think that will be an issue at any stations they stop at.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    “ScotRail guards not keen“

    Probably,

    But in the current ‘dispute situation’ (any talks happening??) might be more problematic than ‘normal’.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. Arellcat
    Moderator

    ScotRail guards not keen.

    ISTR Tulyar saying that the safety case for using those racks wasn't yet agreed.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. Tulyar
    Member

    Correct ITT closd on 24/09 for 2 lots of work

    Lot 1) remove seats from saloon & create a bay approx 3m long with 6 tip-up seats and securing for 4 cycles - immediate

    Lot 2) ironmongery for 3 bikes per power car - pending agreement with staff on loading protocols due to no riding allowed in van space, Carron Water crash (changes in power car design), & door securing issues (New Southgate incident)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Not noticed before

    Presume being on trains with extra capacity.

    Have all SR 125 sets been done yet?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

  21. Morningsider
    Member

    On a recent trip from Pitlochry to Edinburgh (with a few weel kent CCEers), the guard allowed 10 bikes on one of the upgraded HSTs. Bit of a squeeze but perfectly doable. Of course, relying on the goodwill of train crew is not the way to go.

    The internal layout of the LNER Azuma (and other Hitachi 800 series trains) is abysmal. Terrible cycle cupboards, minimal luggage space, hard seats, rubbish first class (yes, yes...first world problems). Lumo are even worse - they don't carry non-folding bikes.

    The Morningsider clan visited the North Yorkshire Moors Railway last week. Travelling on their Mark 1 British Rail rolling stock. The sense of space, comfort and design focused on the passenger was incredible. Every seat at a table, all seats align with the windows, proper buffet cars, a guards van that could hold 20 bikes and lots of luggage, even a bit of design flair. So sad to see what we have lost.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  22. neddie
    Member

    I think it's fine having the Azuma trains, but there at least ought to be a slower "traditional" option configured as Morningsider suggests:

    Traditional electric loco -> rake of say 4 carriages -> big old guards van. Even if it took 6 hours to get to London and ran a few times a day, that would be fine

    Lumo trains are completely terrible - the seats are so low you can't see out of the windows (literally the whole advantage of going by train) and there's no luggage storage, so luggage is littered everywhere in the cabin, and no refreshments. I sincerely hope other rail companies don't start following the "Ryan Air model"

    Posted 9 months ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    Recently used LUMO.

    4 hours from kings Cross to Edinburgh arriving 12.30 a.m.

    No room for luggage never mind bikes. The6 say one case one carry on bag. The Ryan air of trains.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  24. ejstubbs
    Member

    @neddie: I'm not sure there are any "big old guards vans" left on the network, unfortunately. If there are any they're probably already being used for other things.

    IIRC (having seen one pass by Longniddry on the ECML last week) the Lumo class 800s are 4-car sets. Presumably 'someone' could get Hitachi to build a few sets with decent bike accommodation, similar to the conversions that ScotRail have done/are having done* with old DMUs for services in the west highland area. (I don't believe there are any 125mph EMU sets sitting around looking for work, otherwise those could perhaps be converted likewise, at lower cost.)

    Of course, that 'someone' would have to be confident of the service being profitable. And they would have to be able to find paths (gaps that they could fit in to in the schedule) for the service to run. That's if it was to be based on the same commercial model as Lumo; if the DoT suddenly has a brainstorm and decided to offer it as a franchise/managed service then that might be a different story.

    The trouble with putting slower services on the ECML is that they can impede the progress of the fast trains (anyone who's ended up stuck behind a North Berwick to Edinburgh train on the final leg of a trip from King's Cross will know how frustrating this can be). Unfortunately there's not a lot of options for alternative routes to Edinburgh once you're north of Newcastle. Of course, if you want to get into the realms of fantasy railway services you could start to come up with esoteric suggestions like Midland Main Line to Sheffield, Wakefield Line to Leeds, Settle & Carlisle to join the WCML then split at Carstairs for Glasgow & Edinburgh. (Parts of that route are not electrified, though.)

    * I am sadly uninformed as the progress of that project.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  25. gembo
    Member

    @ejstubbs, LUMO deffo have fewer carriages four or five. Max. But same number of seats? So Obvs, less luggage space. And Sardines.

    Posted 9 months ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

    We're making it easier to find the wheelchair and bike spaces on our trains, thanks to a new @ScotGov legacy fund for the @Cyclingworlds .

    https://twitter.com/CyclingEdin/status/1688842330583752704

    Posted 8 months ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    Eurostar derailed my efforts to book a bike on to one of its trains

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/aug/17/eurostar-derailed-my-efforts-to-book-a-bike-on-to-one-of-its-trains

    Posted 8 months ago #

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