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Cyclist-pedestrian conflict? (Meadow Place)

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  1. SRD
    Moderator

    Cycling along this morning when chap coming across from Leamington Walk to South Meadow Walk dinged his bell at pedestrians heading towards Melville Drive. I pointed out that they have priority there, and that the painted road signs have a 'giveway' for cyclists. (In fact, the streetview is the old layout, but even then they have priority)

    We had a civil chat. he said he'd never noticed that. then said something I didn't entirely catch about 'infrastructure in this country' . Doubtless I should have taken that opportunity to evangelize about POP. But instead I said, 'well, this is some of the better infrastructure in the city'. And, seems to me that he could easily go on the road if he didn't want to mix it up with pedestrians.

    I don't have a problem with giving pedestrians priority there. But is there a way it could be designed better?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. Dave
    Member

    I get around this by not ringing a bell (I hate being constantly pinged at if I'm on foot) but, of course, this opens me up to accusations of not ringing a bell. It's a lose-lose situation.

    My slightly-impractical-for-everyone-but-nevertheless-hopefully-effective solution is to record everything with the headcam.

    In the extremely unlikely eventually that I mow someone down it will at least be clear from the footage that I was proceeding at a sensible pace and making due allowances (hopefully!)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. Min
    Member

    I think it is badly designed because the "give way" lines are so far back from the action that you can't actually see anything. It is also not clear what you are supposed to do if you are about to come into conflict with another cyclist. I just slow right down here and negotiate my way through if necessary.

    I am not quite sure what the answer is though.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. steveo
    Member

    A fly over! Or a new bridge! It's how we'd deal with that kind of conflict if all parties paid road tax...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. chdot
    Admin

    Or nice guardrail where peds have to go long way round...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. SRD
    Moderator

    "the "give way" lines are so far back from the action"

    The partiocular incident I saw - and why i called him on it - was right at the give way. the peds were in the obvious (to me) pedestrian channel between the cycle giveway for heading east, and the one for heading west.

    So, I thought he should give way!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. SRD
    Moderator

    @dave are you saying that you don't give way where it says give way? in that case I don't see what good your helmet camera coverage will do you.

    @chdot. yes, the impression I got was that this guy clearly thought cyclists should have priority over pedestrians. pretty sure he muttered something about 'direct way through'.

    much as I want to encourage cycling, that just sounds like drivers who don't want to stop at zebras and toucan crossings to me!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. "yes, the impression I got was that this guy clearly thought cyclists should have priority over pedestrians. pretty sure he muttered something about 'direct way through'.

    much as I want to encourage cycling, that just sounds like drivers who don't want to stop at zebras and toucan crossings to me!"

    That's what it sounded like - and I agree with you. Priority should filter down the way. Bikes have priority over cars; pedestrians have priority over bikes. IMHO.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    "pedestrians have priority over bikes"

    Certainly that's the point of give way lines - but they are not always in the most effective place.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. Min
    Member

    The partiocular incident I saw - and why i called him on it - was right at the give way. the peds were in the obvious (to me) pedestrian channel between the cycle giveway for heading east, and the one for heading west.

    So, I thought he should give way!

    Well sure but I am only talking from personal experience. The junction is so wide and there are so many people milling about that I normally can't tell whether I need to give way or not and even if I did the situation might change as soon as I started moving forward. You just have to be prepared to give way at all times going through there.

    I would be in favour of getting rid of the stupid Give Way lines and putting in nice big signs with "pedestrians have priority" or something. Give Way lines are designed for the convenience of motorists and have nothing to do with real life outside the metal bubble IMO.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. "I would be in favour of getting rid of the stupid Give Way lines and putting in nice big signs with "pedestrians have priority" or something. Give Way lines are designed for the convenience of motorists and have nothing to do with real life outside the metal bubble IMO"

    ^^^ this

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. Snowy
    Member

    +1 WC
    Slower has priority over faster.
    I always assume that pedestrians will do the unexpected, such as step backwards, sideways, or off the curb at the worst possible moment. Allowances are duly made.

    On bell ringing, you never really know if your bell has been heard unless you can see a visible physical indicator of this. If I don't see one, I give them a wider berth. Earphones...grr! ;-)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. wingpig
    Member

    This is one of those bits where I sometimes find I have to nod and wave pedestrians past across me as they've become accustomed to not being given way to. A bit like pelican crossings where people sometimes don't believe you're actually going to stop until your foot is on the ground.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Maybe it needs one of those 4-way interesections they use in North America, where everyone under obligation to give way to everyone else and only go when clear.

    I would always slow here, not just for pedestrians but for cyclists wobbling all over the place too.

    Bell rining can be misinterpreted as "GERROUTTAMYWAY!" when its intended meaning is actually "I say, sir/madam, good day to you, I wish to politely inform you of my presence". A single ping works best for the latter, but often isn't noticed.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. SRD
    Moderator

    The real danger of slowing down there is getting hit from behind by other cyclists who don't expect you to actually stop!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Dave
    Member

    For my part I try to ride through in such a way that nobody gets hurt, regardless of the random painted lines.

    There's a good argument (sadly not yet backed up empirically) that the whole segregated line setup just serves to promote high speed collisions compared with the mixed approach of i.e. NEPN, but it's natural to speed up (that is after all one of the stated aims of separating flows using white lines).

    In this case it's not obvious what duties the give way lines impose on cyclists, since they don't mean what I assume the council wants them to imply, viz that pedestrians have priority - the law states that at a give way line you must not proceed "in a manner or at a time likely to endanger the driver of or any passenger in a vehicle on the major road or to cause the driver of such a vehicle to change its speed or course in order to avoid an accident."

    In typical British style, since it's well established that pedestrians aren't vehicles...

    I suppose there's even an argument that the give way markings reduce (or at least distract from) pedestrian safety, by explicitly instructing cyclists to watch out for other cyclists but placing no onus on them to watch out for pedestrians. Sort of a miserly Crank vs Brooks argument, but hey.

    A stop line would be better, since it's unambiguous - you must stop regardless of what's going on.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. "There's a good argument (sadly not yet backed up empirically)..."

    Or put another way, opinion not based on fact... ;)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. PS
    Member

    Bell rining can be misinterpreted as "GERROUTTAMYWAY!" when its intended meaning is actually "I say, sir/madam, good day to you, I wish to politely inform you of my presence". A single ping works best for the latter, but often isn't noticed.

    Agreed - which is why I favour the freewheel with a noisy free-hub as the chief means of alerting peds to my presence, occasionally backed up by the clicking of gear levers.

    The car-bike / bike-ped analogy works here too. The car horn can be useful to warn people of your presence (to blind reversers, for instance), but it is a particularly blunt weapon that seems to be predominantly used by idiots to rebuke others for perceived misbehaviour and to say "I'm really important. Get out of my way".

    The bike bell is, granted, more charming, but can still be misused and as a result can be perceived as aggressive by its targets.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. Dave
    Member

    They haven't painted the dividing line on SMW to Argyle yet, have they?

    That was my intended area to observe before / after cyclist speeds but my motivation to spend another couple of hours stationary in the park is limited...

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    They haven't painted the dividing line on SMW to Argyle yet, have they?


    not yet.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. barnton-to-town
    Member

    It's generally undisputed by anyone other than mr angry-car-driver that cyclists are something like 75% innocent in road incidents.

    I don't know what the stats are bike on pedestrian ... but they can't be anything like as numerous or serious.

    Cyclists should be allowed to ride on the pavements anywhere. Inconsiderate pavement riding should then be dealt with harshly.

    The law in this country is an ass. Why should my kids be expected to ride on the roads where they are likely to be victims?

    One of my daughters was forced on to the Whitehouse Road (which is pretty much a racetrack) when she was 8 by some upstanding member of the community. Luckily for that big hard man, I was around the corner waiting on her catching up. He'd disappeared when I went back to discuss the incident.

    Another daughter, who is 15, has been harassed a couple of times whilst doing her paper run recently by another testosterone filled upstanding member of the community. She rides slowly, she's in no way shape or form an aggressive cyclist, the pavements are empty because heaven forbid anyone in Barnton would want to WALK anywhere. I'm guessing that when I escort her a few times over the next week or so, this big hard man won't appear.

    She's way too young to drive a car ... why the hell does anyone want kids on the road, amongst the idiot drivers that JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT OTHERS' SAFETY?

    Cycling, when at low speed, when considerately performed, when being done by youngsters, is best done on pavements.

    It's about time we turned the tables on these bullies and their anti-cyclist behaviour.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. gembo
    Member

    I was on the pavement very briefly and very slowly tonight to get round a lorry. I could not defend this had I collided with ped. Similarly on the ped side of MMW they have priority and on the bike side I believe they also have the right to be there, whereas we re supposed to stickntoncycle side. Peds behave randomly like dogs. We need to lookout for them, they should be our pals.

    We had a daft discussion on here once about strict liability and there did seem to be a view expressed by some that bikes should have this protection from cars but it should not filter down to Peds having protection from bikes. Now I disagree with that and go for consistency

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member


    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. johnnyboy
    Member

    I am that chap from this morning. This was my first day back on the bike after a 2 week break as the result of a bizarre and painful accident involving a door handle, water and an impalement. What a glorious day it was too, gone was the months of rain, sleet and ice and in their place a lovely morning. There was joy in my heart as I cycled in, the idiot 4x4 who could so easily have taken me out if he had been 3 seconds later barging through the give way, only stopping between the queuing traffic didn't deter me, it was a great morning!

    I cycled down Bruntsfield Links, slowing at the bottom to let a dachshund cross, in fact I stopped. The owner apologised and said the dog normally stopped, I said it was ok but suggested walking it next to a bike path wasn't the best idea - more for the dog's safety than anything. I carried on, through the melee of bikes and pedestrians - a dangerous bit as anything can happen. I noticed a guy walking down - listening to music but not really paying attention to the bikes crossing or pedestrians in front of him so I rang my bell to warn him, he kind of snapped out of his dream and stopped, so I carried on, thinking at least he's aware now of where he is.

    It was about this point SRD accosted me with the above, I was a bit taken aback and to be honest what I said about the lines was true, I'm normally too busy keeping my eye on pedestrians on their phones or wearing headphones/chatting and generally not paying attention to notice the lines. (I actually did hit someone going the other way, at the crossing last year. She walked up next to me on her phone, and went down the road, as I pulled off, she swerved in front of me, I swerved and hit her but at a very slow speed, she apologised, carried on the phone call and went off at 90 degrees to where she was going when she ran into me.)

    I've been communicating with SRD about POP so the infrastructure comment was a rather clumsy tactic to draw a response about POP as there aren't that many tandems in that area - it failed although from the above did eventually work :-)

    I don't believe pedestrians have less rights, I always ring my bell if passing close due to path width restrictions, if they move out of the way, I thank them, if they don't, I sit behind them and ring the bell and ask them if I can get past, If they ignore me, I'll pass when safe to do so, I don't barge past.

    As far as I was concerned, I had passed the pedestrian safely, I had given way - it was safe for me to pass so I did, however, as I was suffering a bit of pain in my arm at the time, maybe I wasn't concentrating 100% and I admit I may have been in the wrong,

    In my defence, my hands are always on the brakes if any pedestrians are around, more so if they are children.

    On the bell comments, I nearly alway ring my bell but it is a lose/lose situation, some people see it as harassment, some harass you if you don't. My bell is the small single ding type so I normally do it at least 3 times. I mentioned the incident to a colleague who says he finds if you leave more space between the dings, it's less aggressive sounding and people respond more to it. He probably has a point though the majority of people I do multiple dings to are wearing headphones, I just want them to be aware I'm there.

    The other comment about "direct way through" was in fact a response to the good infrastructure comment and was along the lines of "i've got the dangerous bit still to go, the Hotel Missoni" - probably the worst part of my journey. I don't remember using the above phrase.

    Anyway, it's been an interesting debate and a hell of a way to finally meet some one :-)

    I just wanted to put my side to it, I regularly see cyclists jumping lights, cycling on the pavement, wrong way down one-way streets and other such things. I don't do these (well one very small stretch of pavement linking 2 bike paths and I've spoken to the police about it and they're ok with it and it's recently been considerably widened)

    cheers

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    Welcome

    And thanks for posting.

    As you demonstrate it's all a question of judgement!

    Reminds me of the Guardian adverts of a few years ago - ' two views'

    Scene 1 'thug' 'attacks women.

    Scene 2 (scene 1 from different angle) young man pushes woman out of way of falling object.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. johnnyboy
    Member

    I've communicated with SRD about this, I said I'd post a reply and have. As you say, a matter of judgement but will draw a line under it now and be more careful there tomorrow now i know about the lines.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. SRD
    Moderator

    I can corroborate woman and dog story, as I had passed her and thought she looked slightly embarrassed....

    And as I said on twitter, the main reason I called him on the priority issue was because unlike most people who blast through, he was clearly trying to be considerate and careful (as evidenced by bell ringing)!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin


    Just painted

    Posted 11 years ago #

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