CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Middle Meadow Walk & red lights

(14 posts)

  1. cc
    Member

    Lots of people walking obliviously up and down the MMW cycle path today. Most moved out of the way when I gave them a bell ring and a thank you. By the time I was at the top and heading onto Forrest Road (here's a handy map) I was fed up enough of the thank yous to be quite irritated when the driver of a blue van, maddened by my entering the road during his green light, did mad slalom overtaking manoeovres and yelled at me about green lights. I gave him both barrels back, full lung power. In that sort of situation there isn't time for much of a reasoned argument so I just yelled I HAD A GREEN LIGHT and added a banned word.

    But really, he was right to object, why on earth should traffic coming from two different directions both get green lights at the same time? Completely crazy and dangerous as anything. I mean, I know that the idiot who designed the junction must have assumed that all bicycles would go into the bicycle lane, but (a) that's only any good if you're heading straight on at the end of Forrest Road, (b) the cycle lane is usually lost underneath parked vans and cars, (c) even if you make it as far as the bus stop you'll get squashed by a bus.

    I go Middle Meadow Walk -> Forrest Road -> Bristo Place -> Bristo Square. For safety's sake I reckon I have to change to one of these alternatives to that green light. Which one would people recommend?

    - going through the red light at the top of MMW instead of the green (as long as I avoid the traffic coming from Lauriston Place to Forrest Road and the traffic going straight from Teviot Place to Lauriston Place). Most of the pedestrians there cross towards Forrest Road on the red man and quite a few of them walk straight across the cycle path to do so. I could go at the same time as them (and most of the other cyclists).

    - turning right at the top of MMW and cycling along the pavement at the side of Teviot Place - which will lead to just as many arguments

    - turning right lower down MMW and cycling through George Square - which will lead to me losing all my fillings and my bike falling to bits clown style

    - Ditto George Square, only cycling on the pavement, which will lead to me being pushed onto the road (this happened when I tried it).

    I try to be careful to obey the law but here I can't see a reasonable alternative to cycling through the red light at the top of MMW?

    Posted 11 years ago #

  2. wingpig
    Member

    "...but here I can't see a reasonable alternative to cycling through the red light at the top of MMW..."

    As there is no point in the light sequence when there is no traffic being given green to enter Forrest Road then there's no point disobeying the (previously discussed and definitely red-means-red-for-cyclists) mandatory cyclist red when it still means you have to merge with flowing traffic at some point. I think cyclists are meant to go straight into the bike lane at the left of Forrest Road and run away down Candlemaker Row without ever having bothered any cars, whilst cars of course keep well clear of the left-hand side of Forrest Road so that they barely have to notice the cyclists appearing on their left. In reality I always just wait for a bit of space and eye contact with a driver coming from Lothian St before leaving the island and merging.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  3. cc
    Member

    If you cross the red light when there's a long quiet gap between the traffic flows you can get a traffic-free entry to Forrest Road. By contrast if you go when the light goes green you always face motor vehicles bearing down on you from Teviot Place.

    Candlemaker Row - lol :-)

    I really dislike that bike lane - even when I only used to cycle to Forrest Hill (the lane on the left halfway along Forrest Road) I had frequent run-ins with dangerous buses, dangerous pot-holes, dangerous idiots in dangerous cars or dangerous vans, people wandering in the cycle lane, you get the idea. In the absence of a segregated path I feel safer in the middle of the road - as long as I don't have to compete for the space at the traffic lights with violent Grand Prix drivers.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  4. BaseCut
    Member

    The best option for me seems to be going through the MMW red cyclist light and merging in with the traffic coming from Lauriston Place. Need to watch out for the peds, but generally ok. It's never really an option though when I'm going through at 0815 ish as there is so much traffic coming from Teviot Pl. When going through a MMW green light, the drivers from Teviot Pl probably justifiably think the cyclists coming off MMW and then from the direction of Lauriston Pl are jumping a light in some way. Merging is normally quite easy though due to the low speeds and congestion in the morning. Agreed, though, that a junction designed to have two sets of traffic from different directions both having a green light is a bit mad. Bring on the designated George IV route!

    Posted 11 years ago #

  5. SRD
    Moderator

    tbh cc i'm confused was the van coming along teviot place? where were you trying to go?

    My option to get to bristo square in the morning for a doctor's app, was to go across NMW and up Buccleuch street.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  6. Blueth
    Member

    I know you reacted whilst a bit frazzled, though we criticise motorists for yeilding to such influences, but, regardless of layout is the answer not to treat it the same as every green light should be treated ie (and I paraphrase the Highway Code)green means you may proceed if it is clear to do so.

    Most green lights involve vehicles coming from two different directions after all; the angle of those directions really should not alter the basic rule.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  7. cc
    Member

    @SRD I went up MMW and (when the light went green) carried straight on into Forrest Road, with the intention of then turning the corner to the right to go back along Bristo Place to Bristo Square and the cycle storage just beyond it. (I can't see any other legal way of doing this which doesn't involve cycling on the surface-of-the-moon George Square cobbles.)

    @Blueth Thanks - that's a good point.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  8. kaputnik
    Moderator

    It is slightly confusing to find yourself merging into moving traffic on a green like this, and as blueth advises the best approach is to "proceed if it is clear [safe] to do so". I had an LB driver almost flatten me on the Mound once as he turned across my path into me "because he had a green". Of course I was on green to and had priority as I was going straight on and up hill, he was coming down and turning across stream of traffic. But he HAD A GREEN. And therefore the right to try ending my days.

    Anyway... My main irk with the junction is dosy pedestrians milling around all over it.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  9. SRD
    Moderator

    @CC - have you tried MMW - NMW - Buccleuch st?

    works for me

    Posted 11 years ago #

  10. bdellar
    Member

    That junction would be fine if the cycle path wasn't buried under parked cars. I do t heading for Chambers Street, and it's not fun.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  11. LaidBack
    Member

    cc - I agree that this layout is designed to promote conflict.

    The fact is that 90% of drivers probably think you've cycled over a pedestrian crossing. This was brought home to me when I got a mouthful from a driving instructor.

    Many other instances in town where bikes can enter from a pavement but this is only one with a merge and buses trying to go round whilst avoiding parked cars.

    I give it five stars for risk and one for usability. Add in pedestrians wandering about over it just to make it trickier (and to make it more like a pedestrian crossing).

    Posted 11 years ago #

  12. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    I rode this way last Friday and the same thought came to mind. I stayed in the (surprisingly initially clear) cycle lane to merge, but thinking on it afterwards figured safer would be to use the cycle green to get across, but then wait for the motorised traffic from the right to get its red, and set off just before the traffic now behind you gets its green (as you are passed the stop line (legally) and so can go.

    But really, it's ridiculous to have to come to this sort of solution.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  13. mgj
    Member

    Weird; I go this way every day and I've never had any conflict with cars coming from my right, but then I'm not going down Chambers St (prefer to go down the High St) I'd like better enforcement of the parking regulations but to be honest its not the worst part of my commute by any stretch.

    Posted 11 years ago #

  14. cc
    Member

    Today at lunchtime I used something like the Wilmington's Cow / Blueth technique: wait for green; cross the crossing and enter onto the road, then stop; wait for their car-borne lordships and ladyships to finish going past safely; then proceed into Forrest Road. There were only three cars in the queue so not much of a wait and no drama. I did first have to politely assert my place in amongst the gaggle of dozy walkers waiting at the cycle crossing, but hey ho, used to that now.

    Earlier in the day I tried an alternative route, round the south and east sides of George Square - doable OK until I got to the cobbles at the north east corner, *ouch*. And I got the impression that I was the last cyclist through from the Meadows to the south east of George Sq for the next week or two as that's where the rolling path upgrade has reached.

    @SRD I may try your route suggestion once the NMW resurfacing has finished just for the pleasure of the lovely new path :-)

    Posted 11 years ago #

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