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Was going to post this on the 'resurfacing' thread, which is what it relates to, but didn't want to hijack it totally.
http://deceasedcanine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/is-this-worst-intersection-in-edinburgh.html
Much of this has been rehearsed here previously.
I don't know if it's the worst but it did make me wonder. You mention that it's part of NCN75 and that reminded me of a conversation with Mandy who, being new to all this, wondered why such shit roads were designated as part of the national cycle network. And I, naively, explained that Sustrans were making the best of a bad job etc.
Now, I'm wondering if Sustrans are part of the problem. What if they were to withdraw from sections that aren't worthy of the name of being part of the National Cycle Network?
This would be NCN75 if only that junction were better. This where NCN76 would go, if only Fife Council and Transport Scotland could make a proper route. What impact would that have?
Even if they only had star ratings for sections. This is a 1-star section of NCN75 but this bit gets five!
Well someone from sustrans has offered to ride it with me, so I will report back after that...
Ensure you ride it during rush hours SRD, and make them take the most dangerous line, then ride back and forth a few times so they really get to know the junction and all its many failings.
As I've said before, Tarvit Street was shut for quite a while because of building work.
Of course CEC didn't do any traffic surveys to find out where the traffic went instead...
Don't remember the sky failing in.
Really there's only one word to cover it - bollards.
Perhaps some of those nice ones that SRD likes that rise out of the ground (like at City Chambers) so that the big scenery shifting lorries at the King's Theatre didn't have to reverse.
I don't think this is the worst surface at a junction - I reckon that is Comiston Road/Greenbank Drive.
I'm pretty sure the good people at Sustrans know how bad a lot of the NCN actually is - after all, their office is in Edinburgh and they do cycle around the city a lot. I suspect a lot of the poor sections are due to the push to create a "national network" which was funded by the lottery as a millenium project.
While I support the idea of good long distance cycle routes for touring etc. I think there should be far more focus on creating urban cycle networks - which will be far better used than major Sustrans projects linking far flung parts of the highlands.
SRD, this is most prescient.
My route goes from Gilmore Place to Leven St to Valleyfield Street, so I almost never exit from Tarvit Street. Yesterday having missed the first green I was at the front of the queue for the next green. The problems of car drivers 'trying to get through' are rife.
Drivers turning right from Home Street into GP will attempt to do so for as long as possible, which can delay drivers leaving TS. Yesterday there were so many vehicles coming out of TS that my green light went back to red while I was sitting just shy of the box junction markings (and therefore beyond the stop line), and five more cars came out of TS and crossed the junction into GP. Were they all chancers? I took my chances after that and got the hell across the junction.
It made me wonder whether the duration of the green light out of GP was actually 5-10 seconds shorter than that out of TS. There is also some sort of psychological design of the junction that seems to give automatic priority to vehicles from TS, since almost no-one ever turns left from there.
And, SRD, make sure your Sustrans person positions themselves right at the box junction so that they nearly get squished by right-turning buses and then Tarvit St cars.
Drivers turning right from Home Street into GP will attempt to do so for as long as possible
The right turn filter here lasts approx. 4 seconds, and the volume of traffic coming down from Bruntsfield at rush hour means that there is almost never a break to make a right turn without the filter.
I've got the junction pretty sussed in terms of the light sequence, and try and launch myself out of GIlmore Place aiming for Valleyfield Street as quick as possible, but if you are going to do this, you have to be very careful that there aren't any ambergamblers / RLJers going to try cut across you from Home Street.
The safest and least fraught way to cross this junction is on the pedestrian phase by getting off and pushing.
Closing Tarvit St. off as a through road would really help here, as current layout with Valleyfield Street as one way makes it effectively a 5-way junction currently.
"And, SRD, make sure your Sustrans person positions themselves right at the box junction so that they nearly get squished by right-turning buses and then Tarvit St cars."
I wonder if the Sustrans person will survive all this...
I quite like the idea of sustrans threatening to 'break' the network unless there are improvements as a method of forcing some changes. It could reasonably be argued in terms of safety "We feel that, due to the poor design and heavy traffic at certain junctions, the following routes are suspended. We feel the NCN indicates safe cycle routes, so to avoid misleading people and families we must withdraw some of the routes. We are concerned that the following councils are failing to support the aims of the NCN ... blah blah?"
My comment on the blog maybe didn't go far enough: Access-only to Tarvit Street might be the solution. I've noticed more and more cars sneaking (at speed) through the one-way bit at Leven Terrace. It's a route that makes sense I guess, but it means the quiet bike route's not so quiet any more.
"The safest and least fraught way to cross this junction is on the pedestrian phase by getting off and pushing." - I probably do this 50% of the time - usually because I've not been able to get through in a light-cycle. I've been shouted at a couple of times by car drivers waiting in the queue for doing this! I've no idea why - I'm out their way and it's legal - what's not to like?
whats more damaging for cycle tourism, looking at a map and seeing no joined up infrastructure or turning up to use said infrastructure and finding out its a midden/deathtrap?
"The safest and least fraught way to cross this junction is on the pedestrian phase by getting off and pushing."
I mostly go through this south-to-north in the morning. During the (long-awaited, but at least universal) ped phase there are often cyclists turning from GP to head south, one or two riding across to GP from the pavement outside the King's (after either given up trying to roll legally out of Tarvit St or having ridden over from Home St) but few ever going straight from Home St to Bruntsfield Place or vice versa.
After a couple of years of going through it two or three times a week I still haven't found a reliable line to take to not end up slamming down into several deep ruts.
Home Street/Gilmore Place is pretty bad. However I reckon that Picardy Place/London Road/Leith Walk roundabouts stramash is worse! Really only safe on a bike if you are:
a - coming from London Road to go up Leith Street
b - coming from York Place to go down Leith Walk
Otherwise, it's wing and a prayer, assertive riding style time!
"wing and a prayer"
I find myself muttering "completely safe...completely safe...completely safe" when I'm using the infrastructure. Particularly when I'm standing in the middle of Slateford Road waiting to turn right, with cars zooming past on either side - as I was promised it was a safe road to cycle on in correspondence with the council.
I found myself crossing my fingers in Russia when crossing roads (had to get out of the habit in SE Asia as I think it's a very offensive hand signal there!). These aren't conscious things I'm doing really (I'm not superstitious*!) if that makes sense?
Anyone else have superstitious bike things to get them through danger?! (similar to the number of Virgin Marys plastered on Malawi's minibuses - they don't seem to help though...)
*except for always wearing a h****t ;P [sorry]
Lionfish said "I've noticed more and more cars sneaking (at speed) through the one-way bit at Leven Terrace.
If you see this then you should report it to the police at the nearest station, though I think St Leonards are responsible for that street, Valleyfeild Street yes? I can't see why they would cut through that long one way street the wrong way when Glengyle terrace is a few yards further on.
Even if the police don't do anything, you should keep reporting and then complain to your local councillor who should chase it up with the police.
I have to deal with the pleasures of this intersection quite regularly, fortunately outside of rush hour most of the time. Based on the comments here I'm thinking it might be worth doing some 'covert' filming of traffic and bike flow through it to show to the interested parties (Sustrans, CEC even...). Bonus points if we can catch any real bad behavior like the one-way nonsense as experienced by Lionfish.
@DaveC & allebong: sorry! I didn't mean to suggest they were going the wrong way! I guess mentioning it's one-way was a bit of a red herring. They're not breaking the rules, I've just noticed a lot more cars using it as a route around the traffic lights etc (I guess). So going from Melville Drive to Bruntsfield Place!! Sorry people!
I reread what I wrote and that's exactly how it sounded. Ugh, I'll try to be more careful next time :)
Sustrans' own design standards are that the on-road network should be ridable by a competent 12-year-old on their own, or a novice of any age in a group. Anyone got a British standard 12-year-old Sustrans can borrow for testing their on road network? Because the one they're using at the moment is clearly a highly trained vehicular cyclist with iron nerves...
To be fair to Sustrans, the issues with their routes are primarily within urban areas. With a few exceptions, most of the rural routes are pretty good, often providing quiet on-road alternatives to fast, busy A or B roads.
I find the rural Sustrans routes handy when planning DIY audax rides or touring with the family. Granted, I'm not 12, but do take my kids on the NCN routes.
NCN 7 down here isn't that great - it's actually better in town than on the rural roads. The stretch from Dumfries to Glencaple is on a B road that's actually one of the more unpleasant roads to cycle on round here as there's some sharp doglegs with poor visibility. I've yet to meet a cyclist who's at all nervous who will contemplate it - and most experienced cyclists regard it with some trepidation, and generally take another road. There is a river path that with some upgrading would be an excellent alternative but because that part of the network is already complete, there's no money to improve it.
It's a shame because when Sustrans do stuff properly they produce really cracking routes
@lionfish what drives me crazy about those rat-runners is how they are all* desperate to get past me to get the lights - even when those are green.
*okay, all is unfair and inaccurate but at least every two days, I get someone doing that as I toodle along at a reasonable pace, while they rev their engine, hoot at me, or overtake at great speed only to slam on brakes 3 seconds later
What is worst about that junction is that there is no way for those coming along Gilmore Place to know that traffic leaving Tarvit Street has a green light phase that is longer than theirs. I see from comments above that most people just assume that when the light is red for those coming out of GP, it is also red for TS, and that isnt the case, so those tunring right up BP for example think that many of those exiting TS are jumping a red light when they arent due to the phasing.
amusingly...I was coming through tonight. sat at the lights at tarvit street, watching two cyclists opposite -- sporty looking guy on racer, helmet, maybe some lycra and an older, cyclechic woman on upright European style bik -- but mainly concerned for two young female cyclists who had come up and sat between me and kerb <grrr>.
Lights changed. I shot off, only to have cyclechic woman try to cut me off (remember, I am going straight, she is turning), while lycra guy swears at her 'for F*s sake' . I managed an 'Excuse me, I have priority', which I thought was pretty good, all things considered.
"To be fair to Sustrans, the issues with their routes are primarily within urban areas"
I didn't mean to criticise Sustrans - I think they're doing a great job with what they've got - I just feel the councilScottish Government needs to help them and actually spend some effort/"political capital"/money on making the Sustrans routes better.
"only to have cyclechic woman try to cut me off (remember, I am going straight, she is turning), while lycra guy swears at her 'for F*s sake'"
*sigh* b****y cyclists ;P
Sounds like it needs a separate phase for each direction and at least one separate phase for bicycles and bollards across Tarvit Street and only one lane on Gilmore Place and protected cycle lanes, to say nothing of resurfacing.
When I go from the canal to the Meadows I avoid that junction entirely and instead go from Lower Gilmore Place straight across Gilmore Place into Upper Gilmore Place, then up Leamington Terrace, across the cycle crossing and down the Leamington Walk cycle path to the Meadows.
I work in Foutainbridge so if I'm heading to the Causewayside area I would go along Gilmore Park, and then up Leamington Road. On the section between Rope Walk and Gilmore Place I'm going the wrong way up a one way street (a quiet one). It's a nice route, but it certainly is the long way round. The Gilmore Place/Tarvit Street intersection is terrifying.
Another one of Edinburgh's messy junctions where there's just no sensible, safe alternative for those on 2 wheels.
I used to go the Leamington Terrace way and down the meadows but I found it quite frustrating if I was in a hurry as opposed to just cruising. The grind up Leamington Terrace itself gets tedious after a while and if the meadows are busy then heading down Leamington Walk is rather trying at the best of times. At least by blasting along Gilmore Place I can get onto Melville drive pretty quickly. As I said though this is the perspective of someone who doesn't have to commute this during rush hour.
I don't think it's too much to ask that a cycle route follow the shortest and flattest distance between two well-used off-road paths.
The good news is that John Lauder from sustrans confirms on twitter that "junction being re-designed within ATAP. For future we're planning new NCN75 through there"
I'd had some impression that the new route might go elsewhere nearby. if it actually goes through here, and results in serious junction improvement, then I'll be delighted.
New route will be via Lochrin Place when current new development finished.
But don't think that'll help most people using GP - unless they shut Tarvit...
Just seen -
"
John Lauder (@John_Lauder)
05/06/2013 11:55
@SRDorman @Edinburgh_CC 2/2 re. re-aligning route NCN75 there; depends on agreement with developers; then ASAP thereafter as Community Link
"
If that means Lochrin Place to canal basin, SHOULD be covered by planning permission(?)
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